Ulla’s thoughts

Ulla writes to the list. Her email also appears as a forward – ftp

[Imc-uk-features] Greenstein-Atzmon conflict

Ulla ulla at j12.org
Sat Nov 10 04:26:44 PST 2007

To be true, the article and its argumentation and quotes and influences seem
kind of weird to me.

I think we should hide the article, but not delete it, because the debate and
discussion around it has been very interesting and eye-opening, and I think
we should link to the debate from the article because in my opinion a many
lot more people will wonder about the same question(s) and therefore
hopefully look into the discussions and then are able to make up their own
opinion.

Unfortunately I do think that the perceived hostility towards our indymedia
volunteers from Mr.Greenstein weakens his arguments a lot.
bye for now
Ulla

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November 19, 2007 at 12:02 pm Leave a comment

‘a lot of words to advocate censorship’

Ilyan posts to the list – although not with any Kollektive, he often posts to the list.

[Imc-uk-features] Re a letter allegedly sent to me which was posted instead to Rizzo’s anti-Semitic PEPA site

ilyan ac.thomas at ntlworld.com
Sat Nov 10 03:40:00 PST 2007

Greenstein uses a lot of words to advocate censorship. Does that mean he
cannot answer whatever platform Atzmon is presenting. Or is he wanting
to see something he does not understand hidden.

The way some people use the term anti-semitic discredits all Jews. It
must specifically include Arabs, or it becomes a lie hatched up by some
Academic over a century ago.

Is ‘Fascism’ really to be ‘the only answer’ for the survival of Israel?

Ilyan

November 19, 2007 at 11:40 am Leave a comment

Steve Cohen on the Indymedia list

Now Steve Cohen sends the email he sent me to the Indymedia list. Note that the subject line has been changed from “the anti semitism of indymedia”, to ” anti semitism”. Theres a big time gap between the 2 posts. Why did he not send it directly to the list in the first place? Why wait till the next day, and until after he has received it back in his inbox via the CC list which he was added to? – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:03:08 -0000
From: steve cohen
To: imc-uk-features@lists.indymedia.org
Cc: “Greenstein, Tony”
Reply-to: Middle column features for Indymedia UK
Subject: [Imc-uk-features] anti semitism

As a hitherto supporter of Indymedia I am writing in total support of Tony Greenstein’s attribution of anti-Semitism
Some political positions are so clear that they require no reflection to asceratain their meaning. Nazism is one such position. What you have published is another. To talk of “Judaic world view” (ie attributing to all Jews the same view – the conspiracy theory) and refering to the “unpopularity” of Jews in Nazified Europe (a form of holocaust minimisation which virtually coincides with denial) as well as “their holocaust”( the holocaust was perpetrated ON Jews – and others. The perpetrators were the Nazis)…all this is clear,unarguable anti-Semitism. Just as “kill the Yids” is clear,unarguable,anti-Semitism. But yet you claim a) it is open to interpretation b) even if it were anti-Semitic you need a “consensus” as to what to do if anything – a somewhat unique position on fighting racism c) in the meantime you feel quite prepared to print this junk (which incidenetally in identifying anti-Semitism with Palestinian liberation puts you in antagonism to all progressive Palestinian thought). Of course you can continue to use your energy going down this obnoxious path. Or else you can print an apology. steve cohen

November 19, 2007 at 11:26 am Leave a comment

Forwarding the Elf emails to the CCs

Here I make a mistake, and quote the same email twice. Email in its entirety in comments – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:55:33 +0000
From: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
Cc: roland@rantam.net, ‘Moshe Machover’ moshe.machover@kcl.ac., ‘deborah maccoby’ deborahmaccoby@hotmail.com, ‘charlie pottins’ <charlespottins@aol.com, ‘Diana Neslen’ d.neslen@dsl.pipex.com, ‘David Rosenberg’ davros58@yahoo.co.uk, ‘MARK ELF’ markelf@btinternet.com, ‘Michael Karlmanovitch’ michael@paydaynet.org, ‘sofia mcleoad’;sofiahmacleod@blueyonder.co.uk, Steve Cohen raysteve@cohen70.freeserve.co.uk, ‘tony greenstein’ tonygreenstein@yahoo.com
Subject: “Personal abuse is entirely Atzmon’s forte.”

Two more from Mark – I reckon that’s one Greenstein thesis thats been
disproved.
He was quick with the abuse – I’ll publish where and when I like. I don’t jump
when told.

November 19, 2007 at 11:14 am 1 comment

2 more from Elf

The first is a reply to Greenstein’s email to me. Elf has taken out the CCs. He’s still quick with the abuse, still talking about my “racist imagination” but wants to make clear that his abuse is intended for me to deal with alone, and not to be shared with anyone else – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:48:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: MARK ELF markelf@btinternet.com
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

“FTP”

my reply was to you only. Look at the last line.

I’m not seeking a reply from a useless piece of shit [that’s you by the way, “ftp”] but just in case you do reply, keep it “off list” you big bully.

Now, that last line should have made it clear that I am not “working as a group” with the people who were cc’d by Tony. It made it equally clear that I had not forgotten to copy anyone else in because I wanted to keep the content of my email to you, between you and me. The working together bit is just a figment of your racist imagination that seems to have worked overtime to ignore the last line of my email whilst focusing on the rest of it.

You had no right to copy my email on to others. I only publish people’s emails to me if the sender/s subsequently lie about their content.

If you published my email on a site, please remove as soon as possible as it was clearly private.

Thank you

Now leave me alone.
___________________________________________________________________
Soon after a 2nd email from him arrives, he claims that he has only just seen the email that I sent to the email list, even though it is quoted under Greenstein’s reply to me (I will post both emails in their entirety as comments). This time he decides to drop the abuse, and make a request – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:44:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: MARK ELF
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

I only just received this and so took up your distribution of my email to people for whom it clearly wasn’t intended in a separate email. Note that I didn’t forget to copy anyone else in. I don’t know how many more ways I can put it to you that it was clearly not my intention to copy it to a list. Read the last line again and stop being such a fuckwit.

If you;ve posted what was clearly intended for you only then please remove it.

Thank you

November 19, 2007 at 10:56 am 2 comments

Greenstein to me and CC list

I decided to send Elf’s email to Greenstein’s CC list.

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:18:49 +0000

From: freethepeeps@aktivix.org

To: roland@rantam.net

Cc: ‘Moshe Machover’;moshe.machover@kcl.ac, ‘deborah maccoby’;deborahmaccoby@hotmail.com, ‘charlie pottins’;charlespottins@aol.com, ‘Diana Neslen’;d.neslen@dsl.pipex.com, ‘David Rosenberg’;davros58@yahoo.co.uk, ‘MARK ELF’;markelf@btinternet.com;, ‘Michael Karlmanovitch’;michael@paydaynet.org, ‘sofia mcleoad’;sofiahmacleod@blueyonder.co.uk, Steve Cohen ;raysteve@cohen70.freeserve.co.uk, ‘tony greenstein’;tonygreenstein@yahoo.com

Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

Keep them coming – here’s Mark Elf’s abuse as he forgot to CC you guys in:
(C+P of Elf’s email)

Greenstein replied thus:

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:11:36 -0800 (PST)
From: tony greenstein
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org, roland@rantam.net
Cc: ‘Moshe Machover’ , ‘deborah maccoby’ , ‘charlie pottins’ , ‘Diana Neslen’ , ‘David Rosenberg’ , ‘MARK ELF’ , ‘Michael Karlmanovitch’ , ‘sofia mcleoad’ , Steve Cohen , ‘tony greenstein’
Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

Unfortunately not everyone is as polite as me when it comes to being told they are part of some hidden Jewish conspiracy.

I don’t know whether you are a loyalist or not though clearly that would explain where you are coming from (they’re also big supporters of Israel, but that’s also quite compatible).

If I cc people into an e-mail it is because I am under the impression that they might be interested in the topic, not that we are in league with each other. Anyone who knows Steve Cohen and myself will know that we’ve been at loggerheads for 20+ years over the question of Zionism, but I acknowledge that Steve is a damned fine fighter for justice for refugees and asylum seekers in this country.

By buying into Atzmon’s ‘gatekeeping’ a phrase you now use yourself, you have demonstrated that Indymedia’s guidelines about racism, homophobia etc. might as well be torn up because you will block any effective action by your fellow moderators.

Tony Greenstein
________________________________________________________________

Notes from me:

1) Steve Cohen was not on the CC list.
2) Nowhere in the first email did I tell anyone “they are part of some hidden Jewish conspiracy.” I replied to his CC list, which was not hidden.
3) Gatekeeping is a regular term – Atzmon didn’t invent it and doesn’t have exclusive rights to its use
4) Greenstein, like Rance and Elf does not address the questions in my original email to the CC list.

November 19, 2007 at 10:32 am Leave a comment

Mark Elf’s abusive email

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:45:17 +0000 (GMT)

From: MARK ELF <markelf@btinternet.com

To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org

Subject: Re: Bullying tactics

You “presume from the cc’s on Tony’s email that you are working
together as a group on this one.” Are you fucking mad? When you are cc’d into an email promoting viagra or penis enlargement, do you presume that you are working as a group with the sender?

You useless piece of shit. And you complain of bullying tactics whilst betraying a woeful ignorance of racism.

What a wanker you are, whoever you are, ftp.

FTP is a loyalist slogan by the way. It stands for Fuck the Provos. Since you host sectarianism (at best) you might think it a happy coincidence.

You useless wanker, honestly. I can’t believe what you claim to believe. I was going to copy all the other cc’s on this list but, since there are some on the list I don’t know, it wouldn’t be right. It would look like bullying, you wanker! Sorry to be repetitive but there’s nothing worse than an idiot who thinks they’re clever.

What a fuckwit. I’m trying to get my head around this. I blog but I don’t do much surfing. You run or speak for a site that claims to want to “free the people.” I take that to mean all people. You host an article by Gilad Atzmon that states that Israel should have learned from what it was that made Jews unpopular enough to get millions of Jews killed by the nazis. Atzmon’s beef used to be that non-religious people who identify as Jews are zionists since they are asserting, not an identity but, supremacy. But now apparently whatever it was that Israelis have to learn was what it was that made Jews unpopular enough for even those Jews who had converted to Christianity or other religions or who never claimed that they were Jewish, to be killed. So there you have a Christian sitting in church with his or her yellow star. Suddenly they are yanked out of the church by the gestapo and marched off to a concentration camp. They did something to make themselves unpopular?

And the colonial settler State of Israel should learn something from that?

Maybe the last of the colonial settler states has learned that it’s a jolly good idea to have people like Atzmon compare it to the Jews who perished in the holocaust no matter what they did, no matter how they behaved, no matter what they claimed to be, because then they can say that anti-zionism is antisemitism.

But then all that (not so) subtlety is going to be lost on a wanker who believes that people cc’d into an email must be working as a group with the sender.

There are two more specifics in your email that I would like to address since you have written to me out of the blue to complain of my bullying tactics.

You have pasted a copy of an email from a Steve Cohen. Cohen, you might know, is a Jewish surname. Not all people with that surname are Jews but it’s a safe bet usually that someone with that name is Jewish. That does not mean that other Jews are responsible for the email he sent nor are people who are cc’d by someone that also has a Jewish surname.

You quote Deborah Maccoby too. Another Jewish surname. You suggest that Tony Greenstein and all of those he cc’d are responsible for her email and are responsible for any hypocritical departure from what she said regarding “silencing” or not. Individuals who are Jews can still write as individuals.

I have to say that you are not only defending this “free the people” site’s duty to post antisemitic (arguably, you say) articles but you have given vent to it on your own account, at least twice in yoru ludicrous email.

I’m not seeking a reply from a useless piece of shit but just in case you do reply, keep it “off list” you big bully.

___________________________________________________

My response:

*sigh* The Viagra/penis enlargement thing doesn’t work here. I have no idea who sends me mine, and I doubt that I know them. I have never been part of a viagra/penis enlargement spamming ‘movement’.These guys ARE part of the same group. Both are publicly active in the war of attrition on Atzmon – Rance can be found to be editing the Atzmon entry on Wikipedia, while the angry Elf constantly runs antiAtzmon posts on his blog.

JAZ claims it “is a group for Jews and others opposed to the Zionist movement and ideology, and to its impact on both Palestinians and Jews”, and I neither know, nor care, what the ethnic background of its membership is, nor even how many people are in the group. I have explained that personally I can’t become a non Jew against Zionism – Other against Zionism doesn’t work for me either. What concerns me is the tactics they employ against a group they say they are (or were) in sympathy with.

Whilst Elf notes that someone named Cohen is not necessarily Jewish, he says it is safe to assume they are. He also notes that Maccoby is a Jewish surname – perhaps he approves of categorising people by the sound of their surnames? I think it sounds well dodgy. Once again, the people on that CC list are the ones that Greenstein added – I don’t know all of them – and the point of mentioning that their tactics mirrored those of a Hasbarah lobbyist is that they are the same tactics. I’m sure that not every person who responded to her call out to harrass ‘Carol singers’ was Jewish, and it was the Hasbarah lobbyists assumption that I must be Jewish for being on that list.

I don’t know how Steve Cohen got my email address, but as you will see, Greenstein confirms that he knows him, and Cohen specifically named Greenstein in the email. The Fuck the Provos stuff is mad – ftp is short for freethepeeps, my user name, and others use it as “Fuck the Police” and “Fuck the Pope” – later you will see that because I don’t bother denying it, it becomes part of the folklore about me that I am a Loyalist. Who is bringing race into this?

Had any other group used the same tactics, I would have noted that their tactics mirrored that zionist campaign, even if they were called “Supporters of Climate Change theory”, or “People against Police corruption” – I’m not sure how I became the bully by the end of his email – the accusation was made to the group – and I had noted that I might well publish emails I received – ftp

November 14, 2007 at 6:30 pm 16 comments

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