Posts filed under ‘yossarian’

‘I like Yossarian!”

[Imc-uk-features] I like Yossarian!/Re: withdrawing from the list

Anarcho Babe anarchobabe at fempages.org
Sat Nov 10 04:52:19 PST 2007

I would find it very sad if Yossarian withdraws from the lists as his points
of discussion and research and so on has always been very helpful and
interesting, and I like his pragmatic and practical activisty approach.

Finally I think Yossarian is right in his position with the antisemitism
stuff. I don’t mind if the guy is banned or not. I think I would side with
andi in that affair, because he is usually always right. That probably means
I would support a ban (as far as we could enforce it, which is not a lot
practically anyways). Though the article and the discussion around it should
probably be kept accessible to people who will research that issue and the
guys in future and wonder themselves about what, why,how, who and so on.

Nevertheless, I still find the debate around that crappy article much more
worthwhile than the article itself, and it would be sad if a side-effect of
that would be to get our collective splitty or pissed off with each other.

bye for now
Ulla

November 19, 2007 at 12:10 pm Leave a comment

Time Out

Yossarian decided to take time out from the list and to focus on his local collective – ftp

[Imc-uk-features] withdrawing from the list

yossarian yossarian at aktivix.org
Wed Nov 7 18:16:34 PST 2007

Hi there,

I’ve been out of town for a few days, which has given me some time to
think about some stuff. I’ve decided that for the time being I’m going
to withdraw from imc-uk-features, imc-uk-process, imc-uk-network, and
imc-uk-contact. I will still be active on the london list (I’m also
subscribed to imc-cambridge).

There are a few reasons for this decision. I just don’t feel that my
participation in these lists, or within the wider network, has been
particularly fruitful over the past year and a half or so. I have been
working really hard to try and get some new software written for us, but
after fifteen months I still can’t effectively show anybody any of it
because we don’t have a server to show it on. This is extraordinarily
frustrating.

I’m also extremely frustrated by both the culture and the content of the
network’s email lists. The continuing willingness of people to
accomodate complete weirdos on the lists (primarily related to 9/11
stuff) and the unwillingness to implement any kind of effective list
moderation policy make me mental. The recent discussion of
anti-semitism on the list, coupled with the dozen or so similar
discussion over the past while, lead me to believe that I am simply not
functioning on the same planet as the rest of the most active site
admins. I don’t want to have any part in taking responsibility for a
site where I need to discuss moderation policy with somebody talking
about the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world. I had half-prepared a
ripping response to this guy, but after I got back I decided that I find
it just basically wrong to bother discussing it. It’s not how I want to
spend my time.

Having said this, I’d like to note that I have a lot of respect for the
work that everyone puts into moderating the site, and that in general
the quality of the site is better in many ways than it’s been since I
got here five years ago.

Perhaps I just need a break. I’ll still be active within the network in
the context of the London collective, and some quite exciting things are
happening at the moment on the code development front. Three working
groups have formed to work on three different experimental Indymedia CMS
codebases (Plone, CakePHP, and Drupal), with the decision on which CMS
to adopt in January. I’ll pop in now and then and report how this
process is coming.

My commitment to Indymedia, which has been my primary political vehicle
for the past seven years, has been quite shaken by the events of this
past year. I still see a lot of potential for Indymedia, even after all
this time, but the way things are going lately I’m not too confident for
the future. Instead of getting involved in further debilitating and
time-consuming discussions via email, I’ll try and contribute something
on a different level and hope that things will have improved by the time
that I’ve had something of a rest,

Yossarian

November 12, 2007 at 4:52 pm Leave a comment

A way forward? process issues

[Imc-uk-features] From Gilad Atzmon on the debate you are having

mish mish at aktivix.org
Mon Nov 5 08:27:05 PST 2007

Hello all

I’m following this debate with interest. I’m tending towards supporting
yossarian on this particular article, though I’ve argued the other way
before.

First off I’m sorry that I haven’t read all the material
that this discussion has referenced… yet…

I can’t say I have the time to read it all either … And I don’t think
we should all spend lots of our limited activist time reading all of it.

Sat 03-Nov-2007 at 02:39:52PM +0100, mary rizzo wrote:

Yossarian is quoting me saying:

III) “America is about to lose its sovereignty…After
so many years of Independence, the United States of
America is becoming a remote colony of an apparently far
greater state, the Jewish state.”

Gilad: Indeed, becoming an Israeli mission force
fighting some idiotic neocon wars against Iraq, Syria
and Iran serves Israeli interest only. Unless you,
Yossarian, can suggest otherwise.

“serves Israeli interest only”!!! Hardly – Chris describes one
motivation far more plausible than purely Israeli interests.

I think otherwise, I think that the primary motivation for
the imperial genocide in the Middle East is the oil [1] in
the face of imminent or already passed [2] Peak Oil.

and there are plenty in the US (and UK) military industrial complex who
argued (at least before the invasion) that it was in their interest. Of
course Israel would figure in the calculations, but it would not even be
the prime consideration, let alone the sole one.

I also dislike the fine lines in the terminology Atzmon uses. Using
“Jewish” as the term (or “Jewish political identity”) is not going to be
clear in general, and does lead to being quoted by anti-semites, not to
mention playing into the hands of the pro-israeli government lobby being
able to shout “anti-semite”.

I just wanted to address one aspect of this debate —
should all articles that suggest that US foreign policy is
strongly influenced or determined by Israel be hidden?

Of course not. I think that is one point that is likely to get
consensus. But that is only of limited relevance in this particular debate.

As to how to move forward on this, I think it would be good to have some
solid proposals for general guidelines around this topic. It may not
stop there being some borderline posts for us to argue about, but I
think it would often help. Some specific points we may want to address
in proposals would be

* do we agree that there should be blanket bans on some posters (eg BNP)
or should every post be considered on its merits?

* should we demand that posts concerning the influence of the pro
israeli government lobby in the US not use particular language? If so
what are the terms objected to? “Jewish lobby” “Zionism” …

I imagine those who have spent more time than me looking at this issue
would be able to come up with more specific points than that.

On the subject of FTP’s block, my understanding is that if a block is
made then all sides should make an effort to find a position that all
can agree on. I think it would be very useful for FTP and yoss to meet
and discuss these issues.

They obviously do not have the power to decide this for imc uk, but a
focussed discussion by key people in a dispute can cover ground much
faster than an email conversation.

I would expect that the conversation would come back to this list, but
there might be proposals from that conversation which would move on the
conversation on this list. And it would still go to the network
meeting, but the more work done in advance, the better.

That’s enough for now I think …

mish

November 12, 2007 at 2:50 pm Leave a comment

Gilad on Indymedia list

I didn’t post this to list – it went through the normal channels

http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-November/1103-qk.html

mary rizzo maryrizzo at hispam.com
Sat Nov 3 06:39:52 PDT 2007

(Dear Ftp, I am sending this for Gilad, since he
hasn’t got a stable internet connection. He asked
if you could kindly publish this on the list
where the discussion is going on.- Mary)

Dear FTP and the rest of you

I would prefer to spare myself from debating Mr
Greenstein, I have done it in the past and do not
see a point in doing it anymore.

However, Yossarian’s reading of my materials is
far more concerning and I would like to address it briefly.

Yossarian refers to a paper of mine (“Protocols
of the Elders of Zion (Verse 2)” which he finds “disturbing”.

I am indeed critical of any form of Jewish
politics (left, right and centre). The reason is
rather simple: I am opposing any form of identity
politics grounded on racial belonging. I oppose
someone who calls himself a Jewish Marxist as
much as I would oppose another who defines
himself an Aryan socialist (Nazi). I will make it
clear that I have no problem whatsoever with a
Marxist who happens to be a Jew. I have no
problem as well with Torah Jews, with those Jews
who interpret the Judaic call as an ethical endeavor.

Yossarian probably fails to realise that in my
writings I differentiate between Judaism
(religion), Jews (the people) and Jewishness
(ideology). I have no problem with Judaism and
Jews, yet I have some major difficulty with
Jewishness, the ideology that is based on some
different forms of racial supremacy
(Chosenness). It may as well be crucial to
remind you all that in my entire body of work
there is not a single reference to Jews as a
racial entity. I am solely concerned with
Jewishnes. I am scrutinising Jewish identity and
Jewish political identity in particular. The
issue of race is simply ‘non existent’ in my writings!!!

Yossarian refers to me saying:

“his arguments that there is a Zionist plan to
dominate the world do seem to me to be disturbing.”

I agree with you Yossarian, it is indeed very
very disturbing, but I believe that your job is
to expose it rather than to silence it. More to
the point, the work of the Israeli lobby in
America is now out in the open thanks to some
major American academics such as James Petras,
John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt. The book about
the Israeli Lobby was recently circulated in the
NY Times. It is slightly embarrassing that
Yossarian of UK Indy Media is just slightly
behind a major conservative American paper on the topic.

Devastated Yossarian is quoting me saying:

I) “Zionism is a very singular political method
aimed at perfecting the transformation of world
disasters and human pain into Jewish gain,(GA)”

Gilad: Dear Yossarian, why don’t you go and learn
the subject first? You may want to start with
Herzl and the notion of political Zionism. In
case you get lost I can always provide you with
the right texts. You can probably continue with
Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of Dictators.
Though Brenner is far from being a professional
historian, he is a fabulous archivist. You can
learn from him how Zionists capitalised on the Holocaust.

In case you do not want to go that far back I can
provide you all with the AJC (American Jewish
Committee) recent promotion pack for ‘a war against Iran’

Would it be enough to establish a case?

Devastated Yossarian quotes me saying:

II) “Zionist lobbies have managed to
comprehensively dominate the major sources that
control American public opinion: both in culture,
in media and in finance (GA)”

Gilad : I suggest to you, Yossarian, to read the
following
link.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

I really start to wonder whether you live on the
same planet the rest of us do
.

Yossarian is quoting me saying:

III) “America is about to lose its
sovereignty…After so many years of
Independence, the United States of America is
becoming a remote colony of an apparently far
greater state, the Jewish state.”

Gilad: Indeed, becoming an Israeli mission force
fighting some idiotic neocon wars against Iraq,
Syria and Iran serves Israeli interest
only. Unless you, Yossarian, can suggest otherwise.

Yossarian says:

“I am happy enough for people to analyze the
institutional role of AIPAC and other lobby
groups when it comes to US foreign policy
formation, in fact I think that’s quite a
legitimate thing to do. However, he skips over
that part completely – he doesn’t do much
intellectual heavy lifting, he just takes it as a
given that “Zionists” control the media, US
foreign policy, culture, and finance, and that
they want to take over the world. No evidence is
cited for any of this, it’s just all stated as fact.”

Gilad: why don’t you now tell us Mr Yossarian
where AIPAC stops and where Zionism
starts. Please enlighten me and the rest of the
world about the subject because as far as we can
see, AIPAC is nothing but a manifestation of the
Zionist infrastructure. You just fail to
understand that: AIPAC, ADL, ZIONISM, BUND, JEWS
FOR PEACE AND JEWS AGAINST PEACE, JEWS FOR THAT
AND JEWS AGAINST SOMETHING ELSE are all
different formations of some Judeo centric
racially orientated tribal political identities.
They all serve a similar cause, and this cause
is ‘the Jewish people’. Though they have
different plans for the Jewish people and the
rest of the world, they all separate between Jews
and Humanity. And I think that this is very
wrong!!! I may as well suggest to you, Yossarian
that if you do not think that this is very wrong,
it is actually me who doesn’t want to be on your site!

I suggest to you, Yossarian and others that you
spend some time learning about the subject
because at the moment you just spread some old
liberal clichés that prove some severe lack of
understanding of the entire issue and its complexity.

Referring to the Q whether to remove my piece or
to leave it on. As you probably realize, this
very piece was translated into 7 languages, it
appeared on almost every left magazine around the
world and probably every Palestinian one. It was
circulated to millions of people, If you remove
it due to the pressure of this sad Tony
Greenstein, a man who was recently humiliated at
the PSC AGM for trying to silence others, it will
reflect badly on you rather than me.

Please go ahead.

All the very best
Gilad Atzmon

November 12, 2007 at 2:31 pm Leave a comment

Yoss’s response

[Imc-uk-features] ‘Anti-semitism’ and the Greenstein/Atzmon bunfight

yossarian yossarian at aktivix.org
Sat Nov 3 03:47:15 PDT 2007

freethepeeps at aktivix.org wrote:

Quoting yossarian :
“I think you missed my point, so I’ll make it a little clearer. Are you
endorsing the existence of a global Zionist conspiracy for world
domination as posited by Atzmon (among others)? Or not? You do tend to
ignore questions like this one, so please answer it straight.”

I think Israel packs a disproportionate punch for a country of its size. I think
the close links between the neo-cons and zionists have had unpleasant
consequences. I think it is legitimate to investigate the impact of the
pro-Israel lobby on USA foreign policy. I am not surprised that there are
anti-zionists who have focussed on these issues. Despite that, the answer to
your question is no.

Good, that’s what I thought 🙂 I agree with all of those assessments.
And I didn’t mean to ignore the Judith Butler article you forwarded,
just that it raised a complex set of questions that I don’t have time to
respond to via email (it’s quite a long, complex article).

“So, I guess I need to ask: why are you reading stuff on this site? Why
would you quote it to us as a good source to find a balanced perspective
on Zionism? And is this the sort of material you think it’d be good to
have in our newswire? I sure don’t.”

I remembered the Blankfort article and googled for it. Had I usewd different search terms, I might well have clicked on this link:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/04/338404.html or this one:
http://nyc.indymedia.org/es/2006/04/68264.shtml or this one:
http://www.omahaimc.org/newswire/display/267/index.php

I didn’t look at the rest of the site, I had things I needed to do.

Ok, fair enough – it does highlight the problem that although the
question of the role of zionism as a political ideology should be
examined, we need to be really careful about how we approach it. I
think there’s a liberatory aspect to anti-zionism (if you take zionism
to be the chief ideology which legitimizes the oppression of the
Palestinians), but there is an extremely dark flip-side to it, which we
need to be on the lookout for. The question of where to draw the line
between the two is in my opinion what we’re arguing about here.

If you want to block this one, that’s your right, because that’s our
process. I still think that maybe you and I could get together
sometime, outside of the context of one of our on-list fights, and talk
over a beer, because usually it’s you and I who end up sniping at each
other on the list (something I don’t enjoy, especially as I’ve got to
know you more at the noborder camp). If we could come to some kind of
agreement as to where to draw the line, it’d save everybody a lot of
trouble.

The idea would be not to short-circuit the democratic process of
decision making on the lists, but to try and figure out what is
acceptable on the site, and maybe present that to the list as a
proposal. It’d also maybe save a lot of time at the network meeting (if
we ever have one) if we could formulate something together – and if we
had to argue for hours before we reached some kind of conclusion we
could do it with beer and without killing a whole network meeting
talking about this issue (we’ve got lots more important stuff to
discuss, I think). If we don’t do it, I think we’d spend an equivalent
amount of time in adversarial email debates anyway, and probably have
less chance of coming to some conclusion (contentious email debates
often degenerate pretty quickly).

Anyway, just an idea,

Y

November 12, 2007 at 2:18 pm Leave a comment

………. a block

[Imc-uk-features] ‘Anti-semitism’ and the Greenstein/Atzmon bunfight

freethepeeps at aktivix.org freethepeeps at aktivix.org
Fri Nov 2 21:43:07 PDT 2007

Quoting yossarian :

I think you missed my point, so I’ll make it a little clearer. Are you
endorsing the existence of a global Zionist conspiracy for world
domination as posited by Atzmon (among others)? Or not? You do tend to ignore questions like this one, so please answer it straight.

I think Israel packs a disproportionate punch for a country of its size. I think
the close links between the neo-cons and zionists have had unpleasant
consequences. I think it is legitimate to investigate the impact of the
pro-Israel lobby on USA foreign policy. I am not surprised that there are
anti-zionists who have focussed on these issues. Despite that, the answer to
your question is no.

So, I guess I need to ask: why are you reading stuff on this site? Why
would you quote it to us as a good source to find a balanced perspective on Zionism? And is this the sort of material you think it’d be good to have in our newswire? I sure don’t.

I remembered the Blankfort article and googled for it. Had I usewd different
search terms, I might well have clicked on this link:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/04/338404.html or this one:
http://nyc.indymedia.org/es/2006/04/68264.shtml or this one:
http://www.omahaimc.org/newswire/display/267/index.php

I didn’t look at the rest of the site, I had things I needed to do.

I am painfully aware that this must all sound somewhat unfriendly, but
my head explodes with every fresh email. I don’t mean to sound like a
jerk, and I initially didn’t even want to respond to this thread, but I
really am amazed here,

Yoss

I can empathise with that – it happens to me quite often on this list…..

It’ll make your head explode even more when you read that I am prepared to
exercise a block in this matter.

Block: Any group member may “block” a proposal. In most models, a single block is sufficient to stop a proposal, although some measures of consensus may require more than one block (see previous section, “If consensus is not unanimous, who must agree?” ). Blocks are generally considered to be an extreme
measure, only used when a member feels a proposal “endanger[s] the organization
or its participants, or violate[s] the mission of the organization” (i.e., a
principled objection). In some consensus models, a group member opposing a
proposal must work with its proponents to find a solution that will work for
everyone.[13][15]

November 12, 2007 at 12:12 pm Leave a comment

Exploding heads

[Imc-uk-features] ‘Anti-semitism’ and the Greenstein/Atzmon bunfight

yossarian yossarian at aktivix.org
Fri Nov 2 12:30:45 PDT 2007

freethepeeps at aktivix.org wrote:
Quoting yossarian :

“If your response is essentially “here’s his proof!” and then reproducing
his long list of Jews in key positions in the Bush administration, where
does that leave us? “

Only of course, it isn’t HIS long list of Jews – as he said at the beginning -its from here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/bushjews.html
– the sites raison d’etre is outlined here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/about/index.shtml

I think you missed my point, so I’ll make it a little clearer. Are you
endorsing the existence of a global Zionist conspiracy for world
domination as posited by Atzmon (among others)? Or not? You do tend to
ignore questions like this one, so please answer it straight.

yossarian:
“I’d be happy to meet you for a beer in the next couple days if you want
to talk about this stuff, I think it’d be more productive to talk in
person than on the lists, mainly because I don’t have the hours of
emailing time and it’d be faster to just speak to each other,”

“ftp:
Essentially it is for the list to attempt to reach consensus on the call from you and Startx for Atzmon to be banned from the site. I am against the move, and I have made my reasons clear.”

Sure, I agree it’s for the list to decide, I just thought maybe if we
got together and talked for a bit we could benefit from the beer and
also bore people on the list less, as well as probably having the
discussion at a quicker pace.

Blankfort is an anti-zionist who argues that the left’s tendency to ignore the
power of the Israel lobby, is one of the reasons for the failure of the anti-war movement –
http://www.sott.net/signs/editorials/signs_TheChomskyBlankfortPolemic.php – he specifically rebuts Chomsky’s line on the lobby. “

Ok, I read that one (Chomsky is bad because he is pro-Israel and refuses
to say that the zionists run everything important would be my synopsis),
then clicked on the front page of http://sott.net

First two “special reports” on the top left of the site:

1) http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/sott/ATS_article.php – A detailed
discussion of how no plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11, with a nice bit
about how it was actually Israeli intelligence working with the US
government. One of the main writers for sott.net develops the Israeli
connection in a linked page.

2) http://www.sott.net/signs/Stranger_Than_Fiction.php – An article
suggesting that not only was 9/11 a conspiracy, but suggests that it was
probably perpetrated by Israeli soldiers, who because they are so smart
were observed dancing happily and giving each other high-fives in front
of the ruins just after the towers fell. So I guess Jews can be
mind-bendingly stupid as well as fiendishly clever.

The article then rolls into a big long history of Zionism, talking about
how the Jews control the media, finance, the unions, and virtually every
other important institution in every country in the industrialized
world, and how they pushed poor old Hitler into war in 1939 against his
will.

So, I guess I need to ask: why are you reading stuff on this site? Why
would you quote it to us as a good source to find a balanced perspective
on Zionism? And is this the sort of material you think it’d be good to
have in our newswire? I sure don’t.

I am painfully aware that this must all sound somewhat unfriendly, but
my head explodes with every fresh email. I don’t mean to sound like a
jerk, and I initially didn’t even want to respond to this thread, but I
really am amazed here,

Yoss

November 12, 2007 at 11:51 am Leave a comment


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