Posts filed under ‘Moshe Machover’

Lets smear it for the boys now

Another email on the CC list. Again the strawman that I have defended Shamir, along with the smear that I must be an Ulster Loyalist cos I didn’t bother to refute Elf’s ridiculous abuse. I didn’t deny being a ‘piece of shit’ either, so I can guess what that means – entire email in comments – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:56:52 -0800 (PST)
From: tony greenstein <tonygreenstein@yahoo.com>
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org

Cc: roland@rantam.net, ‘Moshe Machover’ <moshe.machover@kcl.ac.uk>, ‘deborah maccoby’ <deborahmaccoby@hotmail.com>, ‘charlie pottins’ <charlespottins@aol.com>, ‘Diana Neslen’ <d.neslen@dsl.pipex.com>, ‘David Rosenberg’ <davros58@yahoo.co.uk>, ‘MARK ELF’ <markelf@btinternet.com>, ‘Michael Karlmanovitch’ <michael@paydaynet.org>, ‘sofia mcleoad’ <sofiahmacleod@blueyonder.co.uk>, Steve Cohen <raysteve@cohen70.freeserve.co.uk>, ‘tony greenstein’ <tonygreenstein@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: “Personal abuse is entirely Atzmons forte.”

What I find interesting is that ftp hasn’t denied Mark’s suggestion that he is an Ulster Loyalist. Now I know that I’d be pretty quick off the mark denying such an accusation. But no doubt ftp considers it a badge of pride.

And speaking of badges of pride, another one is ftp’s admission of knowing Israel Shamir, the advocate of alliances with white supremacists who argues that Auschwitz was an ‘internment camp’. Yet that doesn’t stop ftp defending him too. Despite pretending that he was just an innocent moderator unaware of what the issues were (asking e.g. for a definition of anti-Semitism) it is clear that ftp is extremely well aware of the politics of Atzmon and his supporters.

November 19, 2007 at 1:04 pm 4 comments

Forwarding the Elf emails to the CCs

Here I make a mistake, and quote the same email twice. Email in its entirety in comments – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:55:33 +0000
From: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
Cc: roland@rantam.net, ‘Moshe Machover’ moshe.machover@kcl.ac., ‘deborah maccoby’ deborahmaccoby@hotmail.com, ‘charlie pottins’ <charlespottins@aol.com, ‘Diana Neslen’ d.neslen@dsl.pipex.com, ‘David Rosenberg’ davros58@yahoo.co.uk, ‘MARK ELF’ markelf@btinternet.com, ‘Michael Karlmanovitch’ michael@paydaynet.org, ‘sofia mcleoad’;sofiahmacleod@blueyonder.co.uk, Steve Cohen raysteve@cohen70.freeserve.co.uk, ‘tony greenstein’ tonygreenstein@yahoo.com
Subject: “Personal abuse is entirely Atzmon’s forte.”

Two more from Mark – I reckon that’s one Greenstein thesis thats been
disproved.
He was quick with the abuse – I’ll publish where and when I like. I don’t jump
when told.

November 19, 2007 at 11:14 am 1 comment

Greenstein to me and CC list

I decided to send Elf’s email to Greenstein’s CC list.

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:18:49 +0000

From: freethepeeps@aktivix.org

To: roland@rantam.net

Cc: ‘Moshe Machover’;moshe.machover@kcl.ac, ‘deborah maccoby’;deborahmaccoby@hotmail.com, ‘charlie pottins’;charlespottins@aol.com, ‘Diana Neslen’;d.neslen@dsl.pipex.com, ‘David Rosenberg’;davros58@yahoo.co.uk, ‘MARK ELF’;markelf@btinternet.com;, ‘Michael Karlmanovitch’;michael@paydaynet.org, ‘sofia mcleoad’;sofiahmacleod@blueyonder.co.uk, Steve Cohen ;raysteve@cohen70.freeserve.co.uk, ‘tony greenstein’;tonygreenstein@yahoo.com

Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

Keep them coming – here’s Mark Elf’s abuse as he forgot to CC you guys in:
(C+P of Elf’s email)

Greenstein replied thus:

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 19:11:36 -0800 (PST)
From: tony greenstein
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org, roland@rantam.net
Cc: ‘Moshe Machover’ , ‘deborah maccoby’ , ‘charlie pottins’ , ‘Diana Neslen’ , ‘David Rosenberg’ , ‘MARK ELF’ , ‘Michael Karlmanovitch’ , ‘sofia mcleoad’ , Steve Cohen , ‘tony greenstein’
Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

Unfortunately not everyone is as polite as me when it comes to being told they are part of some hidden Jewish conspiracy.

I don’t know whether you are a loyalist or not though clearly that would explain where you are coming from (they’re also big supporters of Israel, but that’s also quite compatible).

If I cc people into an e-mail it is because I am under the impression that they might be interested in the topic, not that we are in league with each other. Anyone who knows Steve Cohen and myself will know that we’ve been at loggerheads for 20+ years over the question of Zionism, but I acknowledge that Steve is a damned fine fighter for justice for refugees and asylum seekers in this country.

By buying into Atzmon’s ‘gatekeeping’ a phrase you now use yourself, you have demonstrated that Indymedia’s guidelines about racism, homophobia etc. might as well be torn up because you will block any effective action by your fellow moderators.

Tony Greenstein
________________________________________________________________

Notes from me:

1) Steve Cohen was not on the CC list.
2) Nowhere in the first email did I tell anyone “they are part of some hidden Jewish conspiracy.” I replied to his CC list, which was not hidden.
3) Gatekeeping is a regular term – Atzmon didn’t invent it and doesn’t have exclusive rights to its use
4) Greenstein, like Rance and Elf does not address the questions in my original email to the CC list.

November 19, 2007 at 10:32 am Leave a comment

I write to Greenstein’s CC list

Having thought about Cohen’s email, I fear that the debate is about to come highly personalised. Anyone who reads Atzmon differently is opening themselves up to attack by a group who seem to think that they have a right to bulldoze Indymedia into submission in this new battle in their war of attrition. The collective has struggled with similar claims before – some of us agree with Greenstein that it is all too often used as a tool to smear political opponents with, others appear to automatically accept the claims. I decided to write to them – ftp

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:14:17 +0000
From: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
To: tony greenstein
Cc: Roland Rance , Moshe Machover , deborah maccoby , charlie pottins , Diana Neslen , David Rosenberg , MARK ELF , Michael Karlmanovitch , sofia mcleoad
Subject: Bullying tacticsHi all

This is off list. I presume from the cc’s on Tony’s email that you are working
together as a group on this one.

This is the text of an email I received today:

As a hitherto supporter of Indymedia I am writing in total support of Tony
Greenstein’s attribution of anti-Semitism
Some political positions are so clear that they require no reflection to
asceratain their meaning. Nazism is one such position. What you have published
is another. To talk of “Judaic world view” (ie attributing to all Jews the same
view – the conspiracy theory) and refering to the “unpopularity” of Jews in
Nazified Europe (a form of holocaust minimisation which virtually coincides
with denial) as well as “their holocaust”( the holocaust was perpetrated ON
Jews – and others. The perpetrators were the Nazis)…all this is
clear,unarguable anti-Semitism. Just as “kill the Yids” is
clear,unarguable,anti-Semitism. But yet you claim a) it is open to
interpretation b) even if it were anti-Semitic you need a “consensus” as to
what to do if anything – a somewhat unique position on fighting racism c) in
the meantime you feel quite prepared to print this junk (which incidenetally in
identifying anti-Semitism with Palestinian liberation puts you in antagonism to
all progressive Palestinian thought). Of course you can continue to use your
energy going down this obnoxious path. Or else you can print an apology. steve
cohen”

Besides the fact that the dude could do with learning to use paragraphs, it
reminds me of the time I got deluged with emails after Deborah Fink’s Christmas
Carolling list was published on a zionist site, with an invitation to harrass
the addressees. I received many emails asking me if I was really a Jew, and
offering the nastiest and most racist filth imaginable.

I thought afterwards that I should have kept them all and published them. This
time I’m keeping them and may well choose to publish them at some stage. Then
others can judge for themselves whether it is a reasonable tactic to set
supporters onto individuals that you do not agree with. Personally I think it
stinks. It certainly seems to be exactly the same tactic that the zionist woman
used.

So, now its a demand that all Atzmon posts are removed from Indymedia? Thats
kind of ironic, considering the fact that Deborah Maccoby had this to say in
AMIN:

No doubt Atzmon will present this article as yet another vicious “defamation”
of him by a “Jewish Gatekeeper”. He will claim I and other practitioners of
“Jewish Power” – ie the Jewish world conspiracy – are trying to silence
him and his allies. But we’re not trying to silence them; we simply want to
reply to their attacks and defend ourselves. Our very efforts to defend
ourselves become, in their twisted and deluded thinking, proof of our sinister
“Jewish Power”. I will end by asking readers of both articles to decide who is
doing the defaming, and I appeal to Palestinians and their supporters to resist
this attempt to divide and undermine the Palestinian solidarity movement from
within.

Is this call for censorship a negation of what Deborah told the readers of
AMIN? Is it the case that you have no desire to debate with Atzmon, you just
want to shut him up? Even when the article in question doesn’t mention you? Are
you seeking to “divide and undermine”, or what?

Are you supportive of the claim that we should just take your word for it and
realise that when you demand, there is no need for reflection or to ascertain
the meaning? That we’d better jump, do what you say, and apologise? Are you
supportive of the claim that what Atzmon says is the same as “kill the Yids”?

I is not a happy bunny.

ftp

November 13, 2007 at 9:34 am Leave a comment

Rollcall time

Tony replies – and just look at the CC list -its like a rollcall from The Protocols of the elders of London – ftp

[Imc-uk-features] Re a letter allegedly sent to me which was posted instead to Rizzo’s anti-Semitic PEPA site

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 06:44:41 -0800 (PST)
From: tony greenstein
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org, imc-uk-features@lists.indymedia.org
Cc: Roland Rance , Moshe Machover , deborah maccoby , charlie pottins , Diana Neslen , David Rosenberg , MARK ELF , Michael Karlmanovitch , sofia mcleoad

Dear FTP,

Thank you for this, which is the first real response after 2 or more weeks after having submitted my original complaint. Unfortunately it is not clear where posts that complain about an article go, nor did or even do I understand where such posts go and where the threads can be found or indeed how one posts a reply to such a thread. So maybe I can make a few comments on this:

1. I can assure you that I have received nothing in my inbox. The first time I knew there was such a letter was went onto Mary Rizzo’s pepa. So if you sent it I didn’t receive it, I can assure you.
Well, it was sent to you as a cc – I’ve checked my sent email, and the email
that I received from the list, and you are definitely cc’d on both.

2. Given the nature of the complaint, the least that could have been done is that my response, which was hidden could have been placed up alongside the article complained about rather than relegated. The effect is a political choice that an anti-Semitic article stays up in public view and the criticism of it is hidden from most readers of IndyMedia.

3. I am absolutely certain of the fact that the article is anti-Semitic. So are most people in e.g. Jews Against Zionism, people like Moshe Machover, a retired anti-Zionist Israeli academic in this country from Matzpen, the first such organisation in Israel. It is not simply what is written in the article which I’ve highlighted (it is a long article, much of it unremarkable and indeed unoriginal either) but the cumulative weight of what Atzmon has written, of which this is an example e.g. the essay ‘On Anti-Semitism’ his use of the term Elder to describe his anti-Zionist Jewish critics (and the fact that his first ever criticism of us was in an article entitled the The Protocols of the London Elders of Zionism). Or maybe his statement in the ‘Dialectic of Negation’ (all on his site) which states that maybe the reason for the lack of success of Palestine solidarity groups is the presence of Jews in their ranks or his statement in his ‘Esther to Aipac’ article that
 those who believe there was a holocaust ‘dare’ not challenge holocaust revisionists (deniers).

4. You don’t understand the practice on the Guardian’s CIF. I would have preferred not to link to Eisen’s piece. That is taken as read. However the editors insist that if you refer to something then you have to provide a link so others can see what it is you are criticising. But until this all happened I was under the impression that IndyMedia was different. I have put stuff up about the Police attack on the Lebanon 2 years ago, including a secret tape recording of the Brighton Police Commander Kevin Moore justifying to me that response, including the allegation that we were, yes ‘anti-Semitic’. It was incidentally people like me, i.e. Jewish anti-Zionists who were most vociferous in forcing the police to back off. Which is a particular reason why, if we allow people like Atzmon, to then pollute the discourse with anti-Semitic remarks, then it hands a free gift to the police or people like Richard Littlejohn etc. who are eager to portray support for the Palestinians as anti-Semitic.

The Guardian/Indie etc. are liberal papers of the ruling class in this country. One expects them to have a different attittude to printing stuff from the far-right. Something like Indymedia I would have expected to take a position not that far removed from the old anti-fascist position of ‘No Platform’ for overt racists and fascists.

5. I have no doubt, based on previous antics of Atzmon, including the nature of the allegations made and use of language that ‘knuckles’ is Atzmon. I am no expert in IP numbers etc. but I do know that it is possible to disguise them. I say that having received an abusive set of e-mails re an assault case I’m involved with the Police from staff in EDO who have faked IP addresses. I suspect Atzmon has simply written the pieces and if, as he says, there is a S American IP address, he has had it remailed by a member of Eisen’s DYR.

6. Well you say that ‘There is a discussion going on, that has caused quite a major upset in the collective. That is not ‘giving up’, is it?’ No I agree. But I would also have hoped that whilst that discussion was going up, where there is a prima facie case that something is racist, (it is a legal term for where there is a case even though it has not yet been proved) that the article is taken down or hidden. It’s similar to when BSE was about. Should precautions have been taken as soon as the danger was there or not until it was proven scientifically, by which time many others have been infected. I see Atzmon’s writings as a political form of BSE.

7. You quote Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Greenberg. No I haven’t heard of him, but looking at the article I note it comes from that bastion of tolerance viz. the University of Bar Ilan in Tel Aviv. Perhaps you are not aware of Bar Ilan? It is a religious university, which has validated the College of Judea & Samaria on the West Bank. It is a university which refuses to allow Arabs to live on campus. In any case what Greenberg was arguing for was in the context of a religious world view. Atzmon’s argument was entirely different and uses this religious metaphor in order to draw current political conclusions, hence his use of the term Israelite, as if Jews today are the offspring of the ancient 12 tribes. Note ‘the similarities to the Israelite of our time are rather concerning.’

This is not dissimilar to the use by the Nazis of medieval beliefs about Jews, including their role in trade, in order to paint the assimilated Jews of Germany as the equivalent of money lenders etc. But yes, I think Greenberg’s essay was equally reactionary. He writes from a Zionist viewpoint, regretting the fact that Jews are becoming integrated into modern society and looking back to the days when anti-Semitism kept them apart. Zionism and anti-Semitism are 2 sides of the same coin. Both deny that Jews have any valid place in the diaspora and I could quote you far worse things than Greenberg that Zionists use to describe Jews who live outside Palestine/Israel. It is a fact that anti-Semites used to regularly quote Zionists philosophers such as Jacob Klatzkin to ‘prove’ that Jews were strangers and outsiders. E.g.:
  ‘Instead of establishing societies for defence against the anti-Semites who want to reduce our rights, we should establish societies for defence against our friends who desire to defend our rights. J Klatzkin in B Matovu ‘The Zionist Wish and the Nazi Deed’, Issue Winter 1966-7, cited in Uri Davies, Utopia Incorporated, p.17.
  or from the same writer:
  ‘Galut can only drag out the disgrace of our people and sustain the existence of a people disfigured in both body and soul – in a word, of a horror. At the very worst it can maintain us in a state of national impurity and breed some sort of outlandish creature in an environment of disintegration of cultures and of darkening spiritual horizons. The result will be something neither Jewish nor Gentile – in any case, not a pure national type…. some sort of oddity among the peoples going by the name of Jew. The Zionist Idea, Arthur Hertzberg p. 322/323.’ Klatzkin was one of the foremost Zionist theoreticians of his day, a founder of the Encyclopaedia Judaica and an editor of the Zionist official weekly Die Welt.

Incidentally if you were to read similar articles by people like Moses Hess in the book The Zionist Idea, by a liberal Zionist Arthur Herzberg, you would come across stuff which, if you didn’t know, you would think was written by anti-Semites. That was why the founder of Zionism, Theodore Herzl could say of them that ‘the anti-Semitic countries will be our friends and allies.’ (Diaries pp.83/4).

What can I say other than I would be opposed equally to the nonsense above being posted uncritically as an article on Indymedia? There is reams of this stuff from Zionists. The irony is that in his attacks on Jews in the diaspora, Atzmon is merely repeating much of this nonsense, which is why I and others consider that he is not only anti-Semitic but is also someone who shares the Zionist view of diaspora Jews.

You ask ‘Erm, did I say you personally abused him? No! And you’re surely not now going to
deny that you have a beef against the man, nor that you have tried to get him banned from other groups on other occasions, are you?’ The implication in all the posts I’ve read on this dispute, and it is implied in your own, is that my altercation with Atzmon is personal. You yourself say I have ‘a beef against the man’. I’ve never spoken to him and I’ve refused to meet him. On a personal level he may be sweetness and light. Actually many Nazis were highly cultured and disapproved of the gutter anti-Semitism of their more uncouth colleagues. But the suggestion that this is a personal matter is unsustainable. Not only me, but people like Mike Rosen, David Rosenberg, Moshe Machover, Roland Rance and Debbie Maccoby have also sustained considerable personal abuse from Atzmon because of our political criticisms of what Atzmon says.

8. You say that you do not ‘fully understand what Atzmon means by the “real meaning of
their Holocaust” – perhaps he will contribute to the discussion and explain it.’

I suspect Atzmon doesn’t either. However from reading what he does say it would appear that the ‘real meaning’ is derived from his previous assertion that the Holocaust was a result of their unpopularity, i.e. the Jews. Not only is this factually untrue, anti-Semitism was not popular in Germany and there was mass revulsion at the SA pogrom on Krystalnacht, but it would be a tautological irrelevancy. Let me explain. No one doubts that homosexuals were unpopular in 1930’s Germany and most other countries in the West. Were they murdered because of that unpopularity? I would suggest that the unpopularity was a manifestation of the fact that sexual relations were seen as being an integral part of reproducing the labour force, procreation and in that sense ‘unnatural’. It was because homosexuality was seen as running counter to the family morality of capitalism that gays were persecuted and murdered. So was it their ‘unpopularity’ that was to blame? No the latter was a
 product of the political and social factors that led to it. Otherwise it becomes a tautology.

Likewise even if Jews were unpopular, and it could be argued that in White Russia that was true, it wasn’t that that led to their extermination, but factors such as the emergence of those economies from feudalism and the use that was made of a visible minority by the regimes and movements in power.

9. You ask what I meant when I quoted Boaz Evron, a noted Israeli journalist, that ‘Zionist propagandists and fundraisers use the holocaust is best described by Israeli writer Boaz Evron: holocaust awareness is “an official, propagandistic indoctrination, a churning out of slogans and a false view of the world, the real aim of which is not at all an understanding of the past, but a manipulation of the present”. I am making much the same point that e.g. Norman Finkelstein does in The Holocaust Industry. Instead of the holocaust being used to draw anti-racist and anti-imperialist lessons, that racism is wrong whoever it is directed against, Zionism uses it in order to justify barbarities such as the present day siege of Gaza. I didn’t quote this article in my reply to you, but you clearly found it on the web. My latest article in Weekly Worker (of which I’m not a member!) compares this hunger siege to the statements by those like Hans Frank, Nazi Governor general of
 Poland’s Generalgovernment that they would implement a policy of ‘death by hunger’ and indeed some 50,000 of Warsaw’s Jews did die from starvation.

I detest the way Zionists use the calamity of the holocaust to justify their present policies but unfortunately people like Atzmon are playing right into their hands when they themselves use anti-Semitic imagery in ‘support’ of the Palestinians. It is utterly counterproductive and that is why I am asking Indymedia, of all groups, to take his stuff down. I don’t care if he abuses me in the postings I’ve googled on Indymedia, that is of no account, though I’m not sure why they are there anyway. His ‘supportive’ articles, are damaging to any notion of Palestine solidarity.

I don’t know your name, since I assume ftp refers to the collective, but I have tried to respond in a measured way since I want to take at face value your statements that you are in the process of discussion. That is fine, there should be discussion and I would freely accept I may have been intemperate. But I would also ask that rather than keep Atzmon’s stuff up, and I would suggest all his contributions on these lines (I was not aware he’d posted so much before) that they are taken down pending a decision one way or another because Indymedia, which is a valuable resource, should not sully its own reputation with this stuff.

regards

Tony Greenstein

November 12, 2007 at 9:09 pm Leave a comment

Greenstein gets back

This is the hidden post that Greenstein posted on the Indymedia uk newswire – if you click on the link you will see that it is visible. Details of how to see hidden posts are in the editorial guidelines – a comment was also posted to the hidden article explaining what had happened – ftp

Why does Indymedia Tolerate an anti-Semitic article by Gilad Atzmon?
Tony Greenstein | 07.11.2007 00:11 | Anti-racism | Palestine | South Coast | World

Late last month, an ex-Israeli jazz player, Gilad Atzmon, posted an article on Indymedia, ‘‘Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath’. It blamed Jews for the Holocaust because they had made themselves ‘unpopular’. This is a favourite line of British anti-Semites like AK Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. I asked the Indymedia collective to take down an article which refers to a ‘Judaic world view’. The collective decided to consult with Atzmon and in the meantime the article is still up.

In its guidelines, Indymedia gives as one reason (under Discrimination) to hide an article the fact that it uses: ‘language, imagery, or other forms of communication promoting racism, fascism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination.’

The Features Collective have failed to apply this criteria to a clearly anti-Semitic article by Gilad Atzmon.

On 22nd October, in response to an e-mail from Moshe Machover, a founder of the anti-Zionist Israeli group Matzpen, alerting myself and others to this article ‘Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath’ http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html?c=on#c183225 ,.

I sent an e-mail to Indymedia at imc-uk-contact@lists.indymedia.org asking them to take the said posting down. I received no response and so posted a reminder 6 days later.
I eventually received a response from ‘Ana’ informing me that ‘the features collective is currently discussing and trying to make a decision on this, hence the delay in answering. Thanks for your understanding.
Ana, one of imc.’

On November 3rd I was pointed to an article on the anti-Semitic ‘Peace Palestine’ site where an article by Atzmon, entitled, ‘Censorship and “Hiding” Texts: Big and Little Gatekeepers of the World UNITE!’ http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/ was published, detailing the fact that the features collective had passed my request to Atzmon and asked for his comments. Presumably the Indymedia collective were unable to decide what is and is not racist without asking the racist in question.

If anyone has any doubts about whether or not the article is anti-Semitic, then the following extracts should convince them:

‘Within the Judaic worldview, history and ethics are often reduced into a banal single binary opposition principle…. the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago’.

What is the ‘Judaic’ world view? Do all Jews hold the same view? If so this is nothing other than another version of the world Jewish conspiracy that some of us thought had disappeared.

The Holocaust was therefore not the result of the rise of fascism in Germany, the portrayal of Jews as the personifiers of German capitalism, but on account of their ‘unpopularity’. A better example of blaming the victim would be harder to imagine. It is little more than a justification for the Holocaust.

Maybe gypsies and gays should ask themselves why they too are so ‘unpopular’?

I sent a blunt e-mail to the said Ana protesting at the duplicity of herself and the features collective who still haven’t, to date done anything. She replied saying that she was going to do nothing more, though to date neither she nor the collective had done anything anyway.

The following comments from Atzmon have been posted on Indymedia below the article, courtesy of his ‘friend’ Knuckles (who is in fact Atzmon):

‘For my readers and myself, it is absolutely clear that every form of Jewish secular politics (no matter where they find themselves located, Left, Right or Centre) is based on racial orientation….
I am suggesting that the only way to internalise the meaning of the Jewish Holocaust is to teach Jews how to start looking in the mirror, to teach Jews to ask themselves why conflicts with others happen to them time after time. Rather than blaming the Goyim, the Germans, the Muslims, the Arabs, it is about time the Jewish subject learns to ask the 6 million $ question: “why do they pick on me?”
… However, maybe Greenstein can tell us whether or not Jews were involved with Bolshevism….or was it just a Nazi fantasy?….

knuckles: How exactly, Tony? By suggesting that Jews look into their endless tale of destruction and try to understand what is it about them that doesn’t agree with the world?
…. Atzmon: …the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their racial brothers Tony Greastein, Mark Elf and Roland Rance were unpopular in the PSC AGM just a few months ago.’

In most ‘Knuckes’ contributions like the above Atzmon purports to suggest that he is not Atzmon. However in a post at 00.04 of 23.10.07. he forgets his alias and both writes in the first person and signs off as Atzmon:

In June 2005 Jews Against Zionism, and members of the Jewish Socialists Group, picketed a meeting that the SWP held, at which Atzmon spoke. We did it because Atzmon’s writings are clearly anti-Semitic. A sample of his virulent anti-Semitism was the following, which is on his own site:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/onanti.html
American Jewry makes any debate on whether the ‘Protocols of the elder of Zion’ are an authentic document or rather a forgery irrelevant. American Jews do try to control the world, by proxy. So far they are doing pretty well for themselves at least. Whether the Americans enjoy the deterioration of their state’s affairs will no doubt be revealed soon.

I can only assume that the Indymedia Features Collective cannot form a judgment as to whether a statement asserting that it is ‘irrelevant’ whether the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are genuine is anti-Semitic. The Times managed to make up its mind in 1921. Mein Kampf had no doubt as to their provenance. But according to Atzmon, since what the Protocols say is true, what does it matter if they are a forgery?

Tony Greenstein

Tony Greenstein
e-mail: tonygreenstein@yahoo.com

________________________________________________________
comments:

Editorial Guidelines. — IMCista

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/editorial.html

Please read the editorial guidelines. This article has been hidden as a complaint about moderation. These are dealt with on the uk-features-list which is linked to from the guidelines.

IMCista

November 12, 2007 at 4:30 pm Leave a comment

Tony Greenstein requests deletion UK 30/10/07

Tony Greenstein had originally sent this email to the private contact list – it was forwarded to the features list by one of the admins, for discussion by the collective – in the text Tony Greenstein makes it clear that he is working with Moshe machover on this matter.- ftp

[Imc-uk-features] please remove this anti-Semitic article

Notts IMC notts at indymedia.org
Tue Oct 30 01:29:52 PDT 2007

Hiya,

I’m forwarding this from the imc-uk-contact list for people to have a
look at.

Cheers, Wietse

——————->

tony greenstein wrote:
> I sent you the post below 6 days ago. I have not yet received a reply and the article is still up.
>
> I would be grateful if you could respond, assuming of course that anyone is reading the posts to this address.
>
> Tony Greenstein
>
>
> tony greenstein wrote:
> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 16:19:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: tony greenstein
> Subject: http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html?c=on#c183225
> To: imc-uk-contact at lists.indymedia.org
> CC: dave parks
>
> Re: Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath
> http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378213.html?c=on#c183225
>
> I have been forwarded the post below from Moshe Machover. Moshe is an absolutely solid
> Israeli Jewish anti-Zionist. I agree with every word. I have posted. I really think the article should be taken down.
>
> I’ve corresponded with Dave Parks who gave me this e-mail address. He said that you usually ‘hide’ rather than erase articles but I would ask that you make an exception in this case. The article justifies the holocaust by suggesting that it was the victims of the Nazis who brought the catastrophe on themselves because of their unpopularity. This is not merely factually incorrect (Ian Kershaw’s ‘Hitler Myth’ and ‘Popular Dissent and Opinion in the Third Reich’ show this is not so in Germany) but racist.
>
> Atzmon himself is very close to a holocaust denial position and has described ‘The Holocaust Wars’ by Paul Eisen, a fulsome tribute to Ernst Zundel, an arden holocaust denier presently in a W German prison, as a ‘great text’. He has and does wax lyrical on international Jewish conspiracies. He has described a number of Jewish anti-Zionists, including myself, in an article the Protocls of the Learned Elders of London, a clear reference to the infamous Czarist forgery.
>
> On most occasions accusations of anti-Semitism, especially by Zionists against those supporting the Palestinians are a form of defamation. In this case they are unfortunately true.
>
> In solidarity
>
> Tony Greenstein
>
> PS: If you look at the comments section, in which Atzmon poses under the name ‘knuckles’ he also makes various defamatory remarks:
> ‘The problem for many of us however, regarding Mr Greenstein’s credibility is that he has a criminal record for stealing someone else’s credit card, and using it to make various purchases of “toys”. He also has a record of physical and voilent assaults on Jews.’
>
> and racist remarks:
> ‘”the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their racial brothers Tony Greastein, Mark Elf and Roland Rance were unpopular in the PSC AGM just a few months ago.’
>
> However, maybe Greenstein can tell us whether or not Jews were involved with Bolshevism….or was it just a Nazi fantasy? If Greenstein doesn’t know the answer, perhaps he will find the time to read the invaluable “Jewish Century” by the Harvard Prof Yuri Slezkine…..
>
> knuckles: How exactly, Tony? By suggesting that Jews look into their endless tale of destruction and try to understand what is it about them that doesn’t agree with the world? Atzmon suggests that this is the only way to save the Jews and stop others from wanting to harm them.
>
> In most ‘Knuckes’ contributions like the above Atzmon purports to suggest that he is not Atzmon. However in a post at 00.04 of 23.10.07. he forgets his alias and both writes in the first person and signs off as Atzmon:
>
> ‘Unlike Elf, Rosen and Greenstein who believe that they are quite a lot better than other Jews just because they use a slightly different recipe for their Gefilte fish, I believe in a severe form of critical self-reflection….
> Unlike you righteous Jews, I would always start with myself, but somehow you are all intelligent enough to realise that my self-reflection exposes your Judeo-centric politics as a severe form of moronic self-loving.
>
> Last night we were headlining a massive concert for Palestine in Nottingham, the place was completely sold out, 2 weeks ago we did the same for MAP at the 606 in London. Again it sold out 2 weeks in advance. We are now becoming a household name and you seem to become nothing more than a bunch of racially-orientated assholes.
>
> I wish you luck. Don’t ever stop celebrating your revolting symptoms in public. Please don’t stop fighting me, you are the best glimpse into Jewish self-loving and Zionism in particular.
>
> ATB
> Gilad Atzmon
> knuckles
> e-mail: knuckles at gmail.com

November 11, 2007 at 8:53 pm Leave a comment

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