On list response to off list email

November 19, 2007 at 1:22 pm 1 comment

A post from someone in response to an offlist email from Tony Greenstein – full email in comments – sadly truncated – but Greenstein’s full off list email is there.

Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:19:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Mick Fuzz mickfuzz@rocketmail.com
To: tony greenstein tonygreenstein@yahoo.com>, imc-uk-features@lists.indymedia.org
Reply-to: Middle column features for Indymedia UK imc-uk-features@lists.indymedia.org
Subject: Re: [Imc-uk-features] To defend or not to defend supporters of white supremacism and anti-Semitism

Tony, I’m not really happy with the way this is going.
The personal is political and I’m really not
comfortable with the way you’re acting here. It just
seems a bit too full on.

I don’t think it’s appropriate to browse the archives
of the imc-uk-features list and send emails to people
personally.

However as I’m sure you have got experience of, If you
keep kicking the anthill then it will eventually wake
up the sleepy ones in there and they’ll come out and
wonder what is going on.

And although I’m not happy about the way you are doing
it, I can say after reading through the articles that
I think Atzmon’s post should be hidden.

I’ve written this thought to be fed into the
imc-uk-features list. It’s not really a direct reply
to you Tony, so please don’t email me personally, I
think it’s probably best if you keep co-respondence to
the indymedia lists to avoid annoying people.

I reckon that it’s a very difficult and often
thankless task doing the indymedia administration. As
someone that doesn’t spend a lot of time doing it, I
would like to thank those that do.

cya
mick

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Entry filed under: Indymedia, Tony Greenstein.

Lets smear it for the boys now ‘How to get rid of Anti-Semitism’

1 Comment Add your own

  • 1. freethepeeps  |  November 19, 2007 at 1:24 pm

    Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:19:06 -0800 (PST)
    From: Mick Fuzz
    To: tony greenstein , imc-uk-features@lists.indymedia.org
    Reply-to: Middle column features for Indymedia UK
    Subject: Re: [Imc-uk-features] To defend or not to defend supporters of white supremacism and anti-Semitism

    hi there all,

    Tony, I’m not really happy with the way this is going.
    The personal is political and I’m really not
    comfortable with the way you’re acting here. It just
    seems a bit too full on.

    I don’t think it’s appropriate to browse the archives
    of the imc-uk-features list and send emails to people
    personally.

    However as I’m sure you have got experience of, If you
    keep kicking the anthill then it will eventually wake
    up the sleepy ones in there and they’ll come out and
    wonder what is going on.

    And although I’m not happy about the way you are doing
    it, I can say after reading through the articles that
    I think Atzmon’s post should be hidden.

    I’ve written this thought to be fed into the
    imc-uk-features list. It’s not really a direct reply
    to you Tony, so please don’t email me personally, I
    think it’s probably best if you keep co-respondence to
    the indymedia lists to avoid annoying people.

    I reckon that it’s a very difficult and often
    thankless task doing the indymedia administration. As
    someone that doesn’t spend a lot of time doing it, I
    would like to thank those that do.

    cya
    mick

    — tony greenstein wrote:

    > Dear Indymedia moderator,
    >
    > It started with ftp’s classic ‘defence of free
    > speech’ so beloved of the right-wing and has ended
    > up with ftp defending a known holocaust denier and
    > someone who actively works with, not merely defends,
    > actively works with, members of the fascist right. I
    > refer to Israel Shamir. The fact that ftp praises
    > Shamir suggests that he has another agenda entirely.
    > Ftp’s first e-mail to me suggested that he was an
    > innocent abroad, not even being able to work out a
    > definition of anti-Semitism for himself.
    >
    > It is entirely the decision of the Indymedia
    > collective as to whether or not they are happy to
    > continue carrying Atzmon’s articles. But noone,
    > should be under any illusions that ftp is right on
    > one thing – if you defend Atzmon you should also
    > defend his friend and mentor Israel Shamir. And if
    > you do that then not only Holocaust denial is a
    > valid issue for debate (except I have been denied
    > the right of reply, whereas Atzmon for some strange
    > reason is accorded it) but Shamir’s political
    > orientation is equally valid. Why not an alliance
    > with Nick Griffin, Horst Mahler, David Duke and the
    > other assorted luminaries of the white supremacist
    > and neo-Nazi right?
    >
    > But the rot didn’t start here. Having now looked
    > into previous discussions I learn that Indymedia
    > carried another Atzmon article, ‘Purim Special: From
    > Esther to AIPAC’. Certainly the article is long and
    > ponderous, and for the most part utter gibberish
    > which uses enough complex phraseology to make it
    > appear that there is something profound and
    > insightful about the piece. But it has a key
    > paragraph, which suggests what was really in
    > Atzmon’s mind, viz. the suggestion that Holocaust
    > denial is of equal validity to those who believe it
    > happened. Atmon wrote:
    >
    > ‘The Scholars who are engaged in the study of the
    > Holocaust religion (theology, ideology and
    > historicity), are engaged mainly with structural
    > formulations, its meanings, its rhetoric and its
    > historical interpretation. Some happen to search for
    > the theological dialectic (Marc Ellis), others
    > formulate the commandments (Adi Ofir), some learn
    > its historical evolution (Lenni Brenner), other
    > expose its financial infrastructure (Finkelstein).
    > Interestingly enough, most scholars who are engaged
    > in the subject of Holocaust religion are engaged
    > with a list of events that happened between
    > 1933-1945. Most of the scholars are themselves
    > orthodox observants. Though they may be critical of
    > different aspects of the exploitation of the
    > Holocaust, they all accept the validity of the Nazi
    > Judeocide and its mainstream interpretations and
    > implications. Most of the scholars, if not all of
    > them, do not challenge the Zionist narrative, namely
    > Nazi Judeocide, yet, more than a few are critical of
    > the way Jewish and Zionist institutes employ the
    > Holocaust. Though some may dispute the numbers
    > (Shraga Elam), and others question the validity of
    > memory (Ellis, Finkelstein), no one goes as far as
    > revisionism, not a single Holocaust religion scholar
    > dares engage in a dialogue with the so-called
    > ‘deniers’ to discuss their vision of the events or
    > any other revisionist scholarship.’
    >
    > This is utter tripe. Anyone who has read Norman
    > Finkelstein or Lenni Brenner knows that they don’t
    > at all subscribe to a Holocaust religion.
    > Finkelstein’s Holocaust Industry debunks the claims
    > and pretensions of those like Elie Wiesel who use
    > the Holocaust to justify the oppression of the
    > Palestinians.
    >
    > The whole collective is by now very well aware of
    > Atzmon’s Jewish conspiracy theories. A few appear to
    > have resigned and the rest are, in an emulation of
    > Pontius Pilate, washing their hands of the affair.
    > In the process you are therefore handing a veto to
    > an open supporter of Shamir and Atzmon in your
    > group, viz. ftp.
    >
    > Other’s like Chris Osmond seem to find it
    > comforting to think that what is at issue is
    > Atzmon’s reputation rather than what he writes. That
    > is unfortunately a fatuous excuse for avoiding any
    > responsibility. If Indymedia is to stick by its
    > guidelines on discrimination then it is not merely a
    > question of deleting, not hiding, Atzmon’s worthless
    > articles, but of also removing the racist cuckoo
    > from its nest.
    >
    > You can either ascribe the situation of the
    > Palestinians to the genetic/racial make up of Jews
    > and their various conspiracies or you can put the
    > blame where it belongs – on imperialist support of
    > Israel, as anyone with eyes to see cannot but fail
    > to recognise. Those who take refuge in racism are no
    > friends of the Palestinians and to date the
    > collective has behaved in an utterly cowardly way.
    >
    > I posted a reply to ftp and I suggest that you
    > take note of the persons that ftp defends.
    > Tony Greenstein
    >
    >
    > >>Ftp says ‘I stand for justice for Palestinians.
    > I stand against bullying.’
    >
    > No ftp you stand for defending racism. What Mark
    > Elf writes to you is his own concern. At least he
    > does it in his own name. I accept no responsibility
    > for the fact that some people feel angry at your
    > defence of Atzmon. Like the Daily Mail and others of
    > that ilk, who present their racism and attacks on
    > asylum seekers as being a defence of free speech,
    > you portray your defence of Atzmon and now Israel
    > Shamir as one of standing up to bullying, free
    > speech etc.
    > Racism, by its very nature, targeting people
    > because of some inborn, genetic quality, is a denial
    > of free speech and ultimately the right to life. But
    > like the Melanie Philips of this world you believe
    > the freedom to be a racist is the most important one
    > and that it would be wrong to prevent Gilad Atzmon
    > targeting Jews who support the Palestinians (because
    > they are his major targets).
    >
    > Ftp is right though to compare the criticisms of
    > Atzmon with those of his and Atzmon’s friend Gilad
    > Atzmon. As Atzmon put it in an e-mail to me, Israel
    > Shamir is ‘a unique and advanced thinker’. Since
    > some people have called for a discussion then maybe
    > one should look at what Shamir actually believes and
    > writes and see if he was indeed, as ftp suggests,
    > another victim of a cruel witch-hunt.
    >
    > In an article ‘Who needs Holocaust’, in the days
    > when Atzmon was relatively sane Shamir wrote:
    > ‘Gilad reiterated: It was the RAF that repeatedly
    > dismissed the necessity of bombing Auschwitz.
    > Another go of Zionist propaganda. The camp was an
    > internment facility, attended by the Red Cross (as
    > opposed to the US internment centre in Guantanamo).
    > If it were bombed, the internees would die – or as a
    > result of the bombing, or due to starvation for the
    > supplies would not arrive. Indeed, would Gilad
    > advise to bomb Guantanamo? This idea of “bombing
    > Auschwitz” makes sense only if one accepts the
    > vision of “industrial extermination factory”, and it
    > was formed only well after the war.’
    > http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Who_Needs.htm
    >
    > There is no doubt that Shamir is a holocaust
    > denier. Auschwitz was ‘an internment facility’ not
    > an ‘industrial extermination factory.’ In fact he is
    > far worse than that. One of the key proponents of
    > the academic boycott, Sue Blackwell, criticised
    > Shamir for his racist views. He responded by posting
    > personal details about her to Martin Webster,
    > someone who was one of the key figures in post-war
    > British fascism and a founder of the National Front.
    >
    > Israel Shamir, who ftp believes is another victim
    > of the Atzmon style witchhunt, is also explicit in
    > calling for an alliance with the white supremacist
    > right. Ftp is clearly well aware of this. Maybe he
    > defends the following views too?
    >
    > http://www.israelshamir.net/English/antiSemit.htm
    > ‘For as long as Richard Perle sits in the
    > Pentagon, Elie Wiesel brandishes his Nobel Prize,
    > Mort Zuckerman owns the USA Today, Gusinsky bosses
    > over Russian TV, Soros commands multi-billions of
    > funds and Dershowitz teaches at Harvard, we need the
    > voices of Duke, Sobran, Raimondo, Buchanan, Mahler,
    > Griffin and of other anti-bourgeois nationalists. If
    > we accept their exclusion from discourse, Jewish
    > bigotry will be tolerated while anti-Jewish bigotry
    > is removed. Then, the middle ground for Joe Public
    > will be ‘a little bit of Jewish bigotry’, or
    > ‘Zionism lite’, in the words of my dear friend Bob
    > Green.’
    > In other words in order to combat Jewish racists
    > we need anti-Semitic racists such as David Duke, the
    > ex KKK leader and Nick Griffin. Problem is that BNP
    > leader Griffin today says he is anti-Muslim and
    > pro-Zionist! And that is exactly where this nonsense
    > of fighting racism with racism leads. As to freedom
    > of speech, maybe ftp should tell that to the victims
    > of Duke’s comrades.
    >
    > But if ftp is consistent then the Moderators of
    > Indymedia should also invite Israel Shamir to
    > contribute a guest article, and while they are at
    > it, perhaps Mahler of the German NPD and David Duke,
    > to say nothing of Nick Griffin and Pat Buchanan
    > (Nixon’s
    === message truncated ===

    Reply

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