2 more from Elf

November 19, 2007 at 10:56 am 2 comments

The first is a reply to Greenstein’s email to me. Elf has taken out the CCs. He’s still quick with the abuse, still talking about my “racist imagination” but wants to make clear that his abuse is intended for me to deal with alone, and not to be shared with anyone else – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:48:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: MARK ELF markelf@btinternet.com
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

“FTP”

my reply was to you only. Look at the last line.

I’m not seeking a reply from a useless piece of shit [that’s you by the way, “ftp”] but just in case you do reply, keep it “off list” you big bully.

Now, that last line should have made it clear that I am not “working as a group” with the people who were cc’d by Tony. It made it equally clear that I had not forgotten to copy anyone else in because I wanted to keep the content of my email to you, between you and me. The working together bit is just a figment of your racist imagination that seems to have worked overtime to ignore the last line of my email whilst focusing on the rest of it.

You had no right to copy my email on to others. I only publish people’s emails to me if the sender/s subsequently lie about their content.

If you published my email on a site, please remove as soon as possible as it was clearly private.

Thank you

Now leave me alone.
___________________________________________________________________
Soon after a 2nd email from him arrives, he claims that he has only just seen the email that I sent to the email list, even though it is quoted under Greenstein’s reply to me (I will post both emails in their entirety as comments). This time he decides to drop the abuse, and make a request – ftp

Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:44:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: MARK ELF
To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

I only just received this and so took up your distribution of my email to people for whom it clearly wasn’t intended in a separate email. Note that I didn’t forget to copy anyone else in. I don’t know how many more ways I can put it to you that it was clearly not my intention to copy it to a list. Read the last line again and stop being such a fuckwit.

If you;ve posted what was clearly intended for you only then please remove it.

Thank you

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Entry filed under: freethepeeps, Mark Elf, Tony Greenstein.

Greenstein to me and CC list Forwarding the Elf emails to the CCs

2 Comments Add your own

  • 1. freethepeeps  |  November 19, 2007 at 11:01 am

    First email in its entirety:

    Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:48:48 +0000 (GMT)
    From: MARK ELF
    To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
    Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

    “FTP”

    my reply was to you only. Look at the last line.

    I’m not seeking a reply from a useless piece of shit [that’s you by the way, “ftp”] but just in case you do reply, keep it “off list” you big bully.

    Now, that last line should have made it clear that I am not “working as a group” with the people who were cc’d by Tony. It made it equally clear that I had not forgotten to copy anyone else in because I wanted to keep the content of my email to you, between you and me. The working together bit is just a figment of your racist imagination that seems to have worked overtime to ignore the last line of my email whilst focusing on the rest of it.

    You had no right to copy my email on to others. I only publish people’s emails to me if the sender/s subsequently lie about their content.

    If you published my email on a site, please remove as soon as possible as it was clearly private.

    Thank you

    Now leave me alone.

    tony greenstein wrote: Unfortunately not everyone is as polite as me when it comes to being told they are part of some hidden Jewish conspiracy.

    I don’t know whether you are a loyalist or not though clearly that would explain where you are coming from (they’re also big supporters of Israel, but that’s also quite compatible).

    If I cc people into an e-mail it is because I am under the impression that they might be interested in the topic, not that we are in league with each other. Anyone who knows Steve Cohen and myself will know that we’ve been at loggerheads for 20+ years over the question of Zionism, but I acknowledge that Steve is a damned fine fighter for justice for refugees and asylum seekers in this country.

    By buying into Atzmon’s ‘gatekeeping’ a phrase you now use yourself, you have demonstrated that Indymedia’s guidelines about racism, homophobia etc. might as well be torn up because you will block any effective action by your fellow moderators.

    Tony Greenstein

    freethepeeps@aktivix.org wrote:
    Keep them coming – here’s Mark Elf’s abuse as he forgot to CC you guys in:

    You “presume from the cc’s on Tony’s email that you are working
    together as a group on this one.” Are you fucking mad? When you are cc’d into
    an email promoting viagra or penis enlargement, do you presume that you are
    working as a group with the sender?

    You useless piece of shit. And you complain of bullying tactics whilst betraying
    a woeful ignorance of racism.

    What a wanker you are, whoever you are, ftp.

    FTP is a loyalist slogan by the way. It stands for Fuck the Provos. Since you
    host sectarianism (at best) you might think it a happy coincidence.

    You useless wanker, honestly. I can’t believe what you claim to believe. I was
    going to copy all the other cc’s on this list but, since there are some on the
    list I don’t know, it wouldn’t be right. It would look like bullying, you
    wanker! Sorry to be repetitive but there’s nothing worse than an idiot who
    thinks they’re clever.

    What a fuckwit. I’m trying to get my head around this. I blog but I don’t do
    much surfing. You run or speak for a site that claims to want to “free the
    people.” I take that to mean all people. You host an article by Gilad Atzmon
    that states that Israel should have learned from what it was that made Jews
    unpopular enough to get millions of Jews killed by the nazis. Atzmon’s beef
    used to be that non-religious people who identify as Jews are zionists since
    they are asserting, not an identity but, supremacy. But now apparently
    whatever it was that Israelis have to learn was what it was that made Jews
    unpopular enough for even those Jews who had converted to Christianity or other
    religions or who never claimed that they were Jewish, to be killed. So there
    you have a Christian sitting in church with his or her yellow star. Suddenly
    they are yanked out of the church by the gestapo and marched off to a
    concentration camp. They did something to make themselves unpopular?
    And the colonial settler State of Israel should learn something from that?

    Maybe the last of the colonial settler states has learned that it’s a jolly good
    idea to have people like Atzmon compare it to the Jews who perished in the
    holocaust no matter what they did, no matter how they behaved, no matter what
    they claimed to be, because then they can say that anti-zionism is
    antisemitism.

    But then all that (not so) subtlety is going to be lost on a wanker who believes
    that people cc’d into an email must be working as a group with the sender.

    There are two more specifics in your email that I would like to address since
    you have written to me out of the blue to complain of my bullying tactics.

    You have pasted a copy of an email from a Steve Cohen. Cohen, you might know,
    is a Jewish surname. Not all people with that surname are Jews but it’s a safe
    bet usually that someone with that name is Jewish. That does not mean that
    other Jews are responsible for the email he sent nor are people who are cc’d by
    someone that also has a Jewish surname.

    You quote Deborah Maccoby too. Another Jewish surname. You suggest that Tony
    Greenstein and all of those he cc’d are responsible for her email and are
    responsible for any hypocritical departure from what she said regarding
    “silencing” or not. Individuals who are Jews can still write as individuals.

    I have to say that you are not only defending this “free the people” site’s duty
    to post antisemitic (arguably, you say) articles but you have given vent to it
    on your own account, at least twice in yoru ludicrous email.

    I’m not seeking a reply from a useless piece of shit but just in case you do
    reply, keep it “off list” you big bully.

    http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-November/1110-ry.html

    Quoting Roland Rance :

    > I am not working as part of any group on this; nobody has “set me onto” you
    > or Indymedia. My comments were entirely independent and unsolicted, and I
    > resent your suggestion, with its implication of a Jewish conspiracy against
    > Indymedia.
    >
    > The fact is athat Gilad Atzmon is an increasingly open antisemite. He
    > purports to explain the Palestine-Israel conflict as an outcome of a “Judaic
    > worldview”, he denounces anyone who identifies as a Jew — even explicit
    > anti-Zionists — as “undercover Zionists”, “Zionist gatekeepers”, “Jewish
    > tribal activists” or worse, and he has indulged in the most offensive
    > attacks on Jews — see, for instance, his unpleasant remarks abour Michael
    > Rosen, David Rosenbverg, Julia Bard and others on the Socialist Unity blog
    > at http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=554
    >
    > Atzmon is no friend of the left. Indeed, he denies that the term has any
    > relevance: “I argue that left and right are dated concepts”
    > http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/maryrizzo.html . He is, however, a fan
    > of Hitler’s favourite Jew, the misogynisrtic racist Otto Weininger, “one of
    > the most influential intellectual figures in the first four decades of the
    > 20th century” http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/sexpolitics.html
    >
    > Indymedia is currently hosting an article that argues that the Jews in
    > Europe brought the holocaust upon themselves. This puts you in particularly
    > nasty company. Personally, I couldn’t care less whether you or not you hide
    > Atzmon’s contributions. But, if you leave them on display — and
    > particularly if you hide critical comments — then you cannot expect us to
    > consider Indymedia to be part of the left.
    >
    > Roland Rance
    >
    > > —–Original Message—–
    > > From: freethepeeps@aktivix.org [mailto:freethepeeps@aktivix.org]
    > > Sent: 09 November 2007 22:14
    > > To: tony greenstein
    > > Cc: Roland Rance; Moshe Machover; deborah maccoby; charlie
    > > pottins; Diana Neslen; David Rosenberg; MARK ELF; Michael
    > > Karlmanovitch; sofia mcleoad
    > > Subject: Bullying tactics
    > >
    > > Hi all
    > >
    > > This is off list. I presume from the cc’s on Tony’s email
    > > that you are working together as a group on this one.
    > >
    > > This is the text of an email I received today:
    > >
    > > “As a hitherto supporter of Indymedia I am writing in total
    > > support of Tony Greenstein’s attribution of anti-Semitism
    > > Some political positions are so clear that they require no
    > > reflection to asceratain their meaning. Nazism is one such
    > > position. What you have published is another. To talk of
    > > “Judaic world view” (ie attributing to all Jews the same view
    > > – the conspiracy theory) and refering to the “unpopularity”
    > > of Jews in Nazified Europe (a form of holocaust minimisation
    > > which virtually coincides with denial) as well as “their
    > > holocaust”( the holocaust was perpetrated ON Jews – and
    > > others. The perpetrators were the Nazis)…all this is
    > > clear,unarguable anti-Semitism. Just as “kill the Yids” is
    > > clear,unarguable,anti-Semitism. But yet you claim a) it is
    > > open to interpretation b) even if it were anti-Semitic you
    > > need a “consensus” as to what to do if anything – a somewhat
    > > unique position on fighting racism c) in the meantime you
    > > feel quite prepared to print this junk (which incidenetally
    > > in identifying anti-Semitism with Palestinian liberation puts
    > > you in antagonism to all progressive Palestinian thought). Of
    > > course you can continue to use your energy going down this
    > > obnoxious path. Or else you can print an apology. steve cohen”
    > >
    > > Besides the fact that the dude could do with learning to use
    > > paragraphs, it reminds me of the time I got deluged with
    > > emails after Deborah Fink’s Christmas Carolling list was
    > > published on a zionist site, with an invitation to harrass
    > > the addressees. I received many emails asking me if I was
    > > really a Jew, and offering the nastiest and most racist filth
    > > imaginable.
    > >
    > > I thought afterwards that I should have kept them all and
    > > published them. This time I’m keeping them and may well
    > > choose to publish them at some stage. Then others can judge
    > > for themselves whether it is a reasonable tactic to set
    > > supporters onto individuals that you do not agree with.
    > > Personally I think it stinks. It certainly seems to be
    > > exactly the same tactic that the zionist woman used.
    > >
    > > So, now its a demand that all Atzmon posts are removed from
    > > Indymedia? Thats kind of ironic, considering the fact that
    > > Deborah Maccoby had this to say in
    > > AMIN:
    > >
    > > “No doubt Atzmon will present this article as yet another
    > > vicious “defamation”
    > > of him by a “Jewish Gatekeeper”. He will claim I and other
    > > practitioners of “Jewish Power” – ie the Jewish world
    > > conspiracy – are trying to silence him and his allies.
    > > But we’re not trying to silence them; we simply want to reply
    > > to their attacks and defend ourselves. Our very efforts to
    > > defend ourselves become, in their twisted and deluded
    > > thinking, proof of our sinister “Jewish Power”. I will end
    > > by asking readers of both articles to decide who is doing the
    > > defaming, and I appeal to Palestinians and their supporters
    > > to resist this attempt to divide and undermine the
    > > Palestinian solidarity movement from within.”
    > >
    > > Is this call for censorship a negation of what Deborah told
    > > the readers of AMIN? |Is it the case that you have no desire
    > > to debate with Atzmon, you just want to shut him up? Even
    > > when the article in question doesn’t mention you? Are you
    > > seeking to “divide and undermine”, or what?
    > >
    > > Are you supportive of the claim that we should just take your
    > > word for it and realise that when you demand, there is no
    > > need for reflection or to ascertain the meaning? That we’d
    > > better jump, do what you say, and apologise? Are you
    > > supportive of the claim that what Atzmon says is the same as
    > > “kill the Yids”?
    > >
    > > I is not a happy bunny.
    > >
    > > ftp

    Reply
  • 2. freethepeeps  |  November 19, 2007 at 11:04 am

    2nd email in its entirety:

    Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:44:09 +0000 (GMT)
    From: MARK ELF
    To: freethepeeps@aktivix.org
    Subject: RE: Bullying tactics

    I only just received this and so took up your distribution of my email to people for whom it clearly wasn’t intended in a separate email. Note that I didn’t forget to copy anyone else in. I don’t know how many more ways I can put it to you that it was clearly not my intention to copy it to a list. Read the last line again and stop being such a fuckwit.

    If you;ve posted what was clearly intended for you only then please remove it.

    Thank you

    freethepeeps@aktivix.org wrote: Keep them coming – here’s Mark Elf’s abuse as he forgot to CC you guys in:

    You “presume from the cc’s on Tony’s email that you are working
    together as a group on this one.” Are you fucking mad? When you are cc’d into
    an email promoting viagra or penis enlargement, do you presume that you are
    working as a group with the sender?

    You useless piece of shit. And you complain of bullying tactics whilst betraying
    a woeful ignorance of racism.

    What a wanker you are, whoever you are, ftp.

    FTP is a loyalist slogan by the way. It stands for Fuck the Provos. Since you
    host sectarianism (at best) you might think it a happy coincidence.

    You useless wanker, honestly. I can’t believe what you claim to believe. I was
    going to copy all the other cc’s on this list but, since there are some on the
    list I don’t know, it wouldn’t be right. It would look like bullying, you
    wanker! Sorry to be repetitive but there’s nothing worse than an idiot who
    thinks they’re clever.

    What a fuckwit. I’m trying to get my head around this. I blog but I don’t do
    much surfing. You run or speak for a site that claims to want to “free the
    people.” I take that to mean all people. You host an article by Gilad Atzmon
    that states that Israel should have learned from what it was that made Jews
    unpopular enough to get millions of Jews killed by the nazis. Atzmon’s beef
    used to be that non-religious people who identify as Jews are zionists since
    they are asserting, not an identity but, supremacy. But now apparently
    whatever it was that Israelis have to learn was what it was that made Jews
    unpopular enough for even those Jews who had converted to Christianity or other
    religions or who never claimed that they were Jewish, to be killed. So there
    you have a Christian sitting in church with his or her yellow star. Suddenly
    they are yanked out of the church by the gestapo and marched off to a
    concentration camp. They did something to make themselves unpopular?
    And the colonial settler State of Israel should learn something from that?

    Maybe the last of the colonial settler states has learned that it’s a jolly good
    idea to have people like Atzmon compare it to the Jews who perished in the
    holocaust no matter what they did, no matter how they behaved, no matter what
    they claimed to be, because then they can say that anti-zionism is
    antisemitism.

    But then all that (not so) subtlety is going to be lost on a wanker who believes
    that people cc’d into an email must be working as a group with the sender.

    There are two more specifics in your email that I would like to address since
    you have written to me out of the blue to complain of my bullying tactics.

    You have pasted a copy of an email from a Steve Cohen. Cohen, you might know,
    is a Jewish surname. Not all people with that surname are Jews but it’s a safe
    bet usually that someone with that name is Jewish. That does not mean that
    other Jews are responsible for the email he sent nor are people who are cc’d by
    someone that also has a Jewish surname.

    You quote Deborah Maccoby too. Another Jewish surname. You suggest that Tony
    Greenstein and all of those he cc’d are responsible for her email and are
    responsible for any hypocritical departure from what she said regarding
    “silencing” or not. Individuals who are Jews can still write as individuals.

    I have to say that you are not only defending this “free the people” site’s duty
    to post antisemitic (arguably, you say) articles but you have given vent to it
    on your own account, at least twice in yoru ludicrous email.

    I’m not seeking a reply from a useless piece of shit but just in case you do
    reply, keep it “off list” you big bully.

    http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-uk-features/2007-November/1110-ry.html

    Quoting Roland Rance :

    > I am not working as part of any group on this; nobody has “set me onto” you
    > or Indymedia. My comments were entirely independent and unsolicted, and I
    > resent your suggestion, with its implication of a Jewish conspiracy against
    > Indymedia.
    >
    > The fact is athat Gilad Atzmon is an increasingly open antisemite. He
    > purports to explain the Palestine-Israel conflict as an outcome of a “Judaic
    > worldview”, he denounces anyone who identifies as a Jew — even explicit
    > anti-Zionists — as “undercover Zionists”, “Zionist gatekeepers”, “Jewish
    > tribal activists” or worse, and he has indulged in the most offensive
    > attacks on Jews — see, for instance, his unpleasant remarks abour Michael
    > Rosen, David Rosenbverg, Julia Bard and others on the Socialist Unity blog
    > at http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=554
    >
    > Atzmon is no friend of the left. Indeed, he denies that the term has any
    > relevance: “I argue that left and right are dated concepts”
    > http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/maryrizzo.html . He is, however, a fan
    > of Hitler’s favourite Jew, the misogynisrtic racist Otto Weininger, “one of
    > the most influential intellectual figures in the first four decades of the
    > 20th century” http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/sexpolitics.html
    >
    > Indymedia is currently hosting an article that argues that the Jews in
    > Europe brought the holocaust upon themselves. This puts you in particularly
    > nasty company. Personally, I couldn’t care less whether you or not you hide
    > Atzmon’s contributions. But, if you leave them on display — and
    > particularly if you hide critical comments — then you cannot expect us to
    > consider Indymedia to be part of the left.
    >
    > Roland Rance
    >
    > > —–Original Message—–
    > > From: freethepeeps@aktivix.org [mailto:freethepeeps@aktivix.org]
    > > Sent: 09 November 2007 22:14
    > > To: tony greenstein
    > > Cc: Roland Rance; Moshe Machover; deborah maccoby; charlie
    > > pottins; Diana Neslen; David Rosenberg; MARK ELF; Michael
    > > Karlmanovitch; sofia mcleoad
    > > Subject: Bullying tactics
    > >
    > > Hi all
    > >
    > > This is off list. I presume from the cc’s on Tony’s email
    > > that you are working together as a group on this one.
    > >
    > > This is the text of an email I received today:
    > >
    > > “As a hitherto supporter of Indymedia I am writing in total
    > > support of Tony Greenstein’s attribution of anti-Semitism
    > > Some political positions are so clear that they require no
    > > reflection to asceratain their meaning. Nazism is one such
    > > position. What you have published is another. To talk of
    > > “Judaic world view” (ie attributing to all Jews the same view
    > > – the conspiracy theory) and refering to the “unpopularity”
    > > of Jews in Nazified Europe (a form of holocaust minimisation
    > > which virtually coincides with denial) as well as “their
    > > holocaust”( the holocaust was perpetrated ON Jews – and
    > > others. The perpetrators were the Nazis)…all this is
    > > clear,unarguable anti-Semitism. Just as “kill the Yids” is
    > > clear,unarguable,anti-Semitism. But yet you claim a) it is
    > > open to interpretation b) even if it were anti-Semitic you
    > > need a “consensus” as to what to do if anything – a somewhat
    > > unique position on fighting racism c) in the meantime you
    > > feel quite prepared to print this junk (which incidenetally
    > > in identifying anti-Semitism with Palestinian liberation puts
    > > you in antagonism to all progressive Palestinian thought). Of
    > > course you can continue to use your energy going down this
    > > obnoxious path. Or else you can print an apology. steve cohen”
    > >
    > > Besides the fact that the dude could do with learning to use
    > > paragraphs, it reminds me of the time I got deluged with
    > > emails after Deborah Fink’s Christmas Carolling list was
    > > published on a zionist site, with an invitation to harrass
    > > the addressees. I received many emails asking me if I was
    > > really a Jew, and offering the nastiest and most racist filth
    > > imaginable.
    > >
    > > I thought afterwards that I should have kept them all and
    > > published them. This time I’m keeping them and may well
    > > choose to publish them at some stage. Then others can judge
    > > for themselves whether it is a reasonable tactic to set
    > > supporters onto individuals that you do not agree with.
    > > Personally I think it stinks. It certainly seems to be
    > > exactly the same tactic that the zionist woman used.
    > >
    > > So, now its a demand that all Atzmon posts are removed from
    > > Indymedia? Thats kind of ironic, considering the fact that
    > > Deborah Maccoby had this to say in
    > > AMIN:
    > >
    > > “No doubt Atzmon will present this article as yet another
    > > vicious “defamation”
    > > of him by a “Jewish Gatekeeper”. He will claim I and other
    > > practitioners of “Jewish Power” – ie the Jewish world
    > > conspiracy – are trying to silence him and his allies.
    > > But we’re not trying to silence them; we simply want to reply
    > > to their attacks and defend ourselves. Our very efforts to
    > > defend ourselves become, in their twisted and deluded
    > > thinking, proof of our sinister “Jewish Power”. I will end
    > > by asking readers of both articles to decide who is doing the
    > > defaming, and I appeal to Palestinians and their supporters
    > > to resist this attempt to divide and undermine the
    > > Palestinian solidarity movement from within.”
    > >
    > > Is this call for censorship a negation of what Deborah told
    > > the readers of AMIN? |Is it the case that you have no desire
    > > to debate with Atzmon, you just want to shut him up? Even
    > > when the article in question doesn’t mention you? Are you
    > > seeking to “divide and undermine”, or what?
    > >
    > > Are you supportive of the claim that we should just take your
    > > word for it and realise that when you demand, there is no
    > > need for reflection or to ascertain the meaning? That we’d
    > > better jump, do what you say, and apologise? Are you
    > > supportive of the claim that what Atzmon says is the same as
    > > “kill the Yids”?
    > >
    > > I is not a happy bunny.
    > >
    > > ftp

    Reply

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