Greenstein finds the list via PePa

November 12, 2007 at 6:16 pm 1 comment

[Imc-uk-features] Re a letter allegedly sent to me which was posted instead to Rizzo’s anti-Semitic PEPA site

tony greenstein tonygreenstein at yahoo.com
Thu Nov 8 19:16:36 PST 2007

I assume that this is the means by which I contribute to one of the threads re Atzmon. However this is also addressed to the collective whose decision, in the absence of any decision, is to allow an anti-Semitic article to stay up.

Tony Greenstein

Dear Anonymous Moderator of Indymedia,

I note your comment about ‘It doesn’t help if you think you have the right to be rude to Indy volunteers’. Presumably you believe that it is polite that I should read a letter addressed to me on the anti-Semitic list of Mary Rizzo since you haven’t bothered to actually send me the letter below. However I’m not interest in the question of etiquette.
What you are saying is that my response to Atzmon’s overtly anti-Semitic article has been hidden but that you are quite happy to carry his article. Fine. But don’t pretend that that is not a political decision. And if you are going to be honest then you should drop your guidelines. The last time I looked they stated:
‘Articles and/or comments may be hidden for the following reasons:
Discrimination : posts using language, imagery, or other forms of communication promoting racism, fascism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination.
It would be more honest if you were to delete this guideline rather than pretending to something you are unable to achieve.
It is clear re ‘knuckles’ that this is Atzmon using an alias. In much the same way that Atzmon has posted other material in other places using similar aliases such as ‘Yocheved’.
Yes I have said that the accusation of ‘anti-Semitism’ is used to defame and intimidate anti-Zionists and supporters of the Palestinians. However it is also the case that on occasion an accusation of anti-Semitism is actually true. I accept that one of the consequences of Zionists labelling their opponents as ‘anti-Semitic’ is, unfortunately, to drain the term of much of its meaning, but that is no excuse for you to give up on trying to make a clear distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
You state that ‘I think that it would be a bad move on our part to automatically take your side on this matter. It is better in the long run, for all of us, if the kneejerk response to calls of anti-semitism is relaced with an informed decision.’ At no time have I asked you to take ‘my’ side in this matter or make an uninformed decision nor to make a ‘knee jerk’ response. You have after all had two weeks to make a decision, but by your own admission ‘it isn’t going to be a quick process.’ It is clear that you are incapable of making such a decision since you clearly do not understand anti-Semitism or, more generally, racism even when it stares you in the face.
You give 2 reasons for not taking Atzmon’s overtly anti-Semitic article down.
1. When I cite Atzmon as stating that ‘Within the Judaic worldview, history and ethics are often reduced into a banal single binary opposition principle
” you complain that I don’t add his qualification, viz. that ‘it isn’t just the Israelis who personalise conflicts
.’ Leaving aside Atzmon’s conflation of Jews and Israelis, this is a further example of the problem. The term I object to is the reference to ‘the Judaic worldview’. Judaic in my dictionary means relating to Jews or Judaism. It is inherently anti-Semitic to talk about a Judaic or Jewish worldview and the idea that there is such a thing as a Jewish or Arab etc. world view is inherently racist. Such expressions were integral to the idea of the world Jewish conspiracy and a common ingredient of writers such as Henrich Class, Houston Chamberlain and Gobineau. Clearly you are incapable of recognising the clearest formulations of racism. Atzmon’s qualifier was therefore meaningless.
Your second example is Atzmon’s statement that “the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago’. You state that there are ‘other ways of reading the text’ and suggest that my criticism is personally motivated. Far from it. Personal abuse is entirely Atzmon’s forte.
Atzmon’s statement, which is in any case false, is made in the context of what he describes as ‘the real meaning of their Holocaust’. And what is this ‘real meaning of the Holocaust’? It is the unpopularity of the Jews who were exterminated. Forgive me, but I thought the Nazi holocaust had something to do with the rise of fascism and its Nazi variant. Perhaps Atzmon’s racist nonsense also holds for the extermination of up to half a million gypsies, 3 million Poles and thousands of gays? By the same token they too were all ‘unpopular’ and by the same ‘logic’ were also therefore responsible for their own demise.
Clearly your search for consensus is going to be a meaningless activity since you appear to be incapable of understanding the most vile racist statements. In the circumstances it is probably a good thing that you are publicly displaying Atzmon’s article and hiding my response because that at least illustrates where the collective stands on the matter.
Tony Greenstein

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Entry filed under: Indymedia, Tony Greenstein.

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1 Comment Add your own

  • 1. peacepalestine  |  November 12, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    I’d like to point out something here: please notice the way Tony has titled his post, attaching my name and the way many people refer to my site next to the word Anti-Semitic. I had posted on the Indy list something about this, and one of the members had written to me asking about it and what the ADL was. I will omit the name of the poster, but this is the response to his email.

    Hi (name),
    I don’t know if Greenstein takes his modus operandi directly from their (AD) manuals, you should check them out, they are quite illuminating… but that doesn’t change the fact that they are just the same. (anyone who’s ever been in Hillel On Campus – a Jewish Uni student movement that concentrates on promoting Zionism to people who know little to nothing about it, I was an infiltrate for a few months back in the 80s until they discovered that ok, fine, I was Jewish, but I was in there to learn their tricks in order to fight against them – knows that there are certain techniques to use in order to demonise your enemy, and one of these is to try to put the name of your opponent as many times as possible next to the word Anti Semite. With internet it is easier and does more damage. It works like a charm to those who aren’t aware of how just one or two guided campaigns can build up an enormous number of “connections”. If the posts continue in a thread like that, we will have a large cachet of my name next to this slur that is not substantiated, and it will start to get numbers. I can’t believe Tony, hardly a genius, figured that one out on his own. He knows the mechanisms and applies them, believing others will a-critically accept them.) I recommend you check out Source Watch for some insight on these tools, all activists should know the tricks.

    Groups like ADL and Hillel declare their Zionist purposes, and their techniques to destroy by insinuation are among the most copied by many other right wing activist groups. The fact that a “leftist” uses them to demonise his enemy is entirely equivalent to them, but also to Bush or Olmert demonising Saddam, Amedinejad, Haniyeh, the people of Gaza or whoever the enemy is that a “war campaign” must be mounted against. I think it’s a good idea to learn their tricks, but they always repeat them, again and again, so obviously, they are trained in this.

    I am unable to follow the entire debate, but I could imagine it all by heart, as Tony does this on a regular, cyclical basis constantly. I wonder if he has time for anything else. But he already, years ago, actually, has gone on record as saying he does not respect Palestinians, and this, for me is enough to disqualify him entirely from anything having to do with their future or well-being. He wants them to vote who the Israeli “progressives” would like, this is his CONDITION for being able to respect them. He forgot that the progressives have left Israel a while ago, and the ones who actually remain (that I know anyway) think Tony is a pox on the Palestinians and can contribute nothing to their cause. They do not accept any position but one that allows the priority of the demands of Palestinian people, which do not include joining the working classes of the world to combat imperialism. As is to be expected, International Socialism is not a value for the Palestinians, they want their land and freedom and dignity.

    Yes, I have checked some of the posts out and the short ones, I read, including yours. Yes, it is all about fascist-type censorship. Socialist Fascism sounds about right. There is a “wrong” ideology anywhere we find persons who put their own tunnel vision before the good of the “masses” they claim to be part of or support.

    Anyway, hope the situation resolves itself. I think you have caught a glimpse into a strange world I’m unfortunately too familiar with. A world of abuse and distraction from real issues, to cover up a very unsavoury substratum that hinders the activist being in any way capable of bringing any fruitful change to the situation of the Palestinians. I can say this: my Palestinian friends and colleagues all think Tony and his cronies are a pox upon their cause, and wish they would once and for all be exposed and rid of as the useless and damaging elements they are. I don’t ever see any Palestinians supporting Tony. You may want to ask yourself why.

    Take care,
    mary

    Reply

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